CrossWire Bible Society - User contributions [en]

DevTools:CMake

2010-10-04T04:55:47Z

Mwtalbert: Add actual shell commands

An initial, experimental, proof-of-concept version of a [http://www.cmake.org/ CMake] build system for the SWORD library is under way borrowing from the BibleTime CMake system and others. The current pumpkin holder for it is Greg Hellings.

----

== Where is the code? ==

Currently the source for the CMake build system can be found in the regular SWORD SVN tree and should be included with distributions starting with version 1.6.2 (unreleased at the time of this writing) and onwards. Refer elsewhere for information on fetching the SWORD code by Subversion as that is beyond the scope of the present document.

== Now what do I do with the code? ==

Now that you have the code, hopefully in a relatively clean build environment so you can test it without colliding with already installed versions of the SWORD library, it's time to give building a try. Elsewhere you can find documentation on the list of libraries which are optionally a part of SWORD, so I won't go over installing those optional dependencies here - use your favorite method/package manager to install them.

Obviously, since this is all about CMake, you'll be required to install CMake. You can get pre-built binaries here: [http://www.cmake.org]. There are versions for Linux/Unix, OS X, Windows, SunOS/Sparc, IRIX64, HPUX and AIX. Most of them have GUIs, but can also be run from the command line. If you are in Linux/Unix there is almost certainly a package available from your system. I have tested the build with versions 2.6.4 and 2.8 of CMake - if you have something from the 2.4 series and are feeling brave enough to try it, please edit the file CMakeLists.txt and, near the top of the file, change the line that reads
CMAKE_MINIMUM_REQUIRED(VERSION 2.6.0)
to require a version low enough so you can test with your version. I have set the minimum at 2.6.0 because that is the minimum I have tested with and not because I am aware of any limitations of versions earlier than 2.4 which would break the system. Please report any success or failures you have as a result of changes.

If you have the SWORD supporting libraries you want to use installed, and also have CMake installed, it is now time to try to configure the system. Follow the appropriate steps laid out below:

=== Bash or other command-line tool, probably Unix/Linux environment ===

*Create a new directory where the actual configure or build will take place - this can be an empty subdirectory of SWORD (e.g. sword/cmakebuild) or a parallel directory (sword/../swordbuild) or anywhere else you would like. I personally use the parallel directory and following example commands will reflect a directory structure with cmake_sword/ as the base of the SWORD sources and a parallel directory cmake_build/ as the build directory.
*Change into your build directory: cd cmake_build
*Issue the call to CMake with any options you want to test and point it to the root of your SWORD sources: cmake <options> ../cmake_sword/
*Check that there are no error messages and that CMake ends with the messages "Configuring done", "Generating done", and "Build files have been written to: <object directory>"
*From here on out, building should be just like building with Autotools - make -j4/sudo make install

An example of building in a subdir, shared library, setting the prefix, and building the python bindings:
<pre>
mkdir cmakebuild
cd cmakebuild
cmake ../ -DLIBSWORD_LIBRARY_TYPE="Shared" -DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX="/usr" -DSWORD_BINDINGS="Python"
make -j4
sudo make install
</pre>

=== GUI users ===

For those of you using the GUI interfaces with, for example, Windows or OS X or even the CMake GUIs for Linux:

*Open the CMake GUI.
*For the line where the GUI asks "Where is the source code:" browse to the directory where you checked out the SWORD source: C:\Users\Greg\Documents\Projects\cmake_sword
*For the line where the GUI asks "Where to build the binaries:" browse to a directory (does not need to exist yet for the GUI to operate) that is not the same as the path with the source: C:\Users\Greg\Documents\Projects\cmake_build
*If you wish to specify certain options (see the section on options), click the "Add Entry" button and enter the argument you wish to specify under "Name" and the value of that argument under "Value".
*Click "Configure"
**If prompted to create the build directory, say "Yes"
**Select the "generator" for this project... for this, select the system you wish to use to actually do the compile. Some examples are different versions of Microsoft Visual Studio, Unix Makefiles, MSYS Makefiles, Cygwin Makefiles, [http://developer.apple.com/technologies/tools/xcode.html Xcode] projects, Eclipse projects, Borland projects and more.
**Unless you are building for the iPhone (in which case you should skip to the section especially for iPhones!), you will probably want to leave "Use default native compilers" unless you are a power user and know what compiler you would like to use. You could use special options here if you need to select special cross-compilers or similar.
*After configure is completed, if there were errors, you will have a chance to correct them. If certain libraries were not located or you wish to use other values, you can select the Advanced View or check Show Advanced and manually edit any of the cached values.
*If you are happy with the results and there are no errors or after you have corrected any errors, click Configure a second time.
*Click Generate
*Navigate to the directory where you specified to build the binaries and invoke your build system through its native mechanics - open the project file, execute the Makefiles, etc.

=== iPhone ===

There are special steps to be taken to build for the iPhone, if you so wish. When I next get on my Mac, I will post these directions especially for you.
* alternatively, talk to [http://crosswire.org/wiki/User:Niccarter me] about how I do things for PocketSword. I use neither the Make system or CMake. --[[User:Niccarter|Niccarter]] 12:10, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

== How can I customize my options? ==

While not all of the options and functionality of the original SWORD automake system are necessarily supported, I would like to document those which I know about and their status. Also, I want to document the basic method of specifying these options.

=== CMake Options ===

Probably the only important CMake option for normal users is the "Generator" option. For those of you using a GUI, you will be prompted for the Generator to use the first time you click Configure. For command-line users, the default will generally be Unix Makefiles - this goes for Linux, Mac OS X and MinGW in my experience - (possibly different if you're using the DOS prompt in Windows, I haven't checked there) unless you specify otherwise. To get a list of the generators supported by your version of CMake run "cmake --help". The generators will be listed at the bottom. Select the one you would like, for example Xcode, and add the option string:
-G Xcode
to your invocation of CMake. Other examples might be
-G "KDevelop3 - Unix Makefiles"
if you wanted to use KDevelop3 but have it managing Unix Makefiles.

=== SWORD Options ===

For all of these options if you are using a GUI, you can set these options by clicking "Add Entry" before configuring and setting the Name and Value fields. For command line users, you would set an option named SWORD_OPTION to value VALUE by adding
-DSWORD_OPTION=VALUE
to your CMake options. This would look like
cmake -DSWORD_OPTION=VALUE ../cmake_build
or similar.

The options are listed here by name, grouped roughly by their functioning.

==== General, interesting options ====
*SWORD_GLOBAL_CONF - If this has a non-empty value, then the option "-DGLOBCONFPATH=${SWORD_GLOBAL_CONF}/sword.conf" is passed to the compiler. If SWORD_GLOBAL_CONF is unset or is empty, then no additional options are passed to the compiler. I believe support for this is only half implemented at the moment. I believe that, if this is set, then an actual sword.conf should be written to the directory specified. At present this is not the case. '''I am unsure of the correct default behavior if this is not specified.'''
*CMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX - The location on disk where the files will be installed. If left unset this will default to /opt/local on OS X, C:\Program Files (x86)\libsword\ under Microsoft Visual Studio and /usr/local for anything else. Executables will be installed in the bin/ subdirectory, libraries under lib/ and headers under include/sword. A package config file will be installed in lib/pkgconfig. '''There is currently no support for installing the different components to other locations, although one could be supplied without much extra effort if it is useful.'''
*SWORD_BINDINGS - Currently the only binding supported is Python, as this is the only one I know to work. For this, set the the value of SWORD_BINDINGS to "Python" if you wish to build the python module. After you run "make" you will have to change into the directory "bindings/swig/python" and issue the command "python setup.py install". It is possible you will have issues with linking if you have build a shared library and also if you use external zlib and curl libraries. If you have troubles with this stage, please contact me as I do not have a system that has those needs and I would love to produce a patch to handle your system intelligently (I know how to do it, but without a system to test I don't want to risk creating a broken framework).
*SWORD_BUILD_UTILS - If this has the value "No" then utilities will not be built. If this has any other value or is left unspecified, the Utilities will be built and installed.
*SWORD_BUILD_EXAMPLES - If this is given the value "Yes" then the examples/cmdline demos will be built. If this has any other value or is left blank, then demos will not be built.
*SWORD_BUILD_TESTS - If this is given the value "Yes" then the SWORD tests will be run. They are still run using the same system as before (or as closely as it could be replicated). If this has any other value or is left unspecified, tests will not be run. The exception to that is the simple buildtest.cpp in the root of the sword/ folder which will always be built when the library is built.

==== Optional dependencies ====
*SWORD_NO_ZLIB and SWORD_USE_INTERNAL_ZLIB - If SWORD_NO_ZLIB has value "Yes" then No ZLib support will be built into the library. If SWORD_NO_ZLIB has any other value, then ZLib support will be built into the library. If support is to be built in, and either a system-wide ZLib is not found OR SWORD_USE_INTERNAL_ZLIB is set to "Yes", then the internal version will be built. If a system library is found AND SWORD_USE_INTERNAL_ZLIB is set to anything other than "Yes" or has no value, then the system library will be linked against. If both SWORD_NO_ZLIB and SWORD_USE_INTERNAL_ZLIB are set to "Yes" then SWORD_NO_ZLIB will be used, and no ZLib support will be built.
*SWORD_NO_CURL - If this is set to "Yes" then cURL support will not be included regardless of whether cURL is found on the system. If this is any other value or has no value set, then cURL will be built against if it is located and ignored if it cannot be located.
*SWORD_NO_CLUCENE - If this is set to "Yes" then CLucene will be ignored if found. If this is set to any other value or has no value, then the library will be built against CLucene if it can be located and ignored if it cannot be located.

==== Developer or Packager specific options ====
*LIBSWORD_SOVERSION - If set, will use the custom value to set the SONAME of the library. If unset, will default to the current SWORD Version included in the CMake file.
*LIBSWORD_LIBRARY_TYPE - If this has the value "Shared" then a shared library will be build (DLL or .so) along with the exported linking stub. If this is unspecified, then a static library will be built.
*CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE - If this is given the value of "Debug" then the default SWORD debugging flags (-g3 -Wall -Werror -O0) will be enabled. If this is unspecified or any value other than "Debug" then the flag -O3 will be enabled.
*SWORD_ENABLE_WARNINGS - If this has the value "Yes" then -Werror will be passed to the compiler. This would allow independent specification of -Werror without needing to enable actual debugging. '''Should this also enable -Wall?'''
*SWORD_ENABLE_PROFILE - if this has the value of "Yes" then the -pg option will be passed to the compiler. I don't know what this does, but it was available with Autotools, so it has been replicated here. This defaults to off.
*SWORD_ENABLE_PROFILEN - if this has the value of "Yes" then the "-g -finstrument-functions" options will be passed to the compiler. The same disclaimer goes for this as goes for the previous option. This also defaults to off.

== How do I hack the code? ==

If you want to directly hack the SWORD library for reasons other than CMake, I suggest you go elsewhere on this wiki for that.

If you have suggestions and edits for this system, you are welcome to create patches and submit them to the sword-devel mailing list. Also, you can find my email on the list's archives and send them directly to me (Greg Hellings) or, if you are ambitious, you are welcome to create a branch using your favorite DVCS and publish it somewhere and let me know. I am familiar with at least bzr and git and can pull your branch if that is how you would prefer to contribute.

For a basic overview - all of the files are contained within the sword/cmake directory except for a few CMakeLists.txt files in strategic locations. CMakeLists.txt is the file that is the entry point for the system. Any calls to functions like FIND(ICU QUIET) will look for a module either included with your CMake system (ZLib) or included within the directory specified by the line
SET(CMAKE_MODULE_PATH "${CMAKE_CURRENT_SOURCE_DIR}/cmake")
CMake will try to find a file titled FindICU.cmake in one of those paths to satisfy your call to FIND(ICU).

Source lists are in sword/cmake/sources.cmake. I have kept them broken out evenly into their separate base directories under sword/src. Additionally any sources which are only included for conditional reasons have their own set of variables down towards the bottom of that file with what are hopefully successfully mnemonic names.

After calls to FIND(<library>), the system then has to react to which files were found and which were not. This is handled with some semi-complicated logic in sword/cmake/muxsources.cmake.

Since utilities, tests, bindings and examples are all optional compilations, they have their own CMakeLists.txt files located in their own directories. These are invoked with a call to ADD_SUBDIRECTORY([path to directory]). Additional CMakeLists.txt files could also be created for things like the bindings and other self-contained paths.

After build, install is handled in the sword/cmake/install.cmake file.

[[Category:Development tools|CMake]]

Talk:DevTools:ICU

2010-05-21T23:37:03Z

Mwtalbert: /* Why not work upstream? */

== Unused locales? ==

How does CrossWire keep track of which locales to remove from ICU to build icu-sword? As we continue to widen the number of supported locales in various front-end applications, especially Xiphos, is there a risk that the build process for icu-sword will fail to keep track of what is required? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 10:15, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

== Why not work upstream? ==

Can I ask why icu-sword is being maintained as a fork instead of pushing the additional features upstream? I am working on packaging several tools (including Xiphos and Lyricue) for another distro. We have icu already and it seems like adding an icu-sword package will only create conflicts. -- [[User:alerque|Caleb Maclennan]] 10:30, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

In theory, the custom stuff in $src_dir/icu contains all of the additions that are in icu-sword. These extra transliterators work in *nix, but not on Windows which is why I suspect the fork is primarily for. [[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2010-05-05T21:36:32Z

Mwtalbert: You do not have to restart Xiphos in order to index new modules

== Project Links ==
For the front end links, we need to choose either links to homepages or links to wiki pages, not both. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

== Localization ==
I would recommend not listing that front ends can be localized. I don't think that actually matters to any users. What is important, and hence what we should list, is the existing list of UI localizations for each front end. (Ability to display RtoL text is a separate issue, independent of UI localization, so I think that's fine to keep.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

:The original intention of each entry in the table was/is that it gets removed if a feature is present in all frontends. This one means little to end users , but it means something to translators and developers. If we can find out whether SwordBible can get translated easily then all are localisable and the feature should be listed above the table.

Does localization extend to using different numerals for chapter & verse navigation & verse markers ? Or do some Frontends retain digits 0...9 even when everything else is localized? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think BD is the only one that does bi-directional number shaping. That is the user can type in localized digits and BD will shape it into 0-9 (if not already as such). And when displaying it transforms from 0-9 into the user's localized representation, if different. We only do this for user input and program generated numbers. We don't do it for numbers that are explicitly in the text. IMHO, text should be displayed as is. (For ICU's Javadoc on it see: http://icu-project.org/apiref/icu4j/com/ibm/icu/text/ArabicShaping.html).--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

::Here is [http://www.code2000.net/numbersutf.htm A Table of Numbers] in various scripts from Arabic to Tibetan (and more). [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

== Archiving ==
"Archiving" means what? Removal to another location? Compression? Consider whether this is a feature that is actually important to users in their process of making a decision between front ends--not just an attempt at one-upping. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 01:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Osk - if you mistook this table as one-upmanship then you are badly mistaken. I tried to unravel the narrative everyone seems to give about their frontend. Archiving is GS tem for keeping modules out of sight but available. It does what it says on the tin. BT has (I think) a different solution to the same concern. The tables are quite obviously increasingly not anymore for first time users, but that is quite irrelevant. We can always finally extract the core points for a message to users, but there are other uses for these tables possible too - for developers, for translators - where to concentrate effort etc [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Xiphos's concept of archiving is different than what is explained here. It does not actually 'hide' the module; it will still be available after archiving. Archiving zips up the module (preserving correct paths) so that it can be easily transferred to another machine. This is handy for user-created modules if you want to share them with someone else, and will probably be an integral part of future plans to allow uploading modules. Also, you can archive a module, then remove it (which would also affect other apps). Xiphos provides no way for 'hiding' without complete removal (although it probably should). However, the archiving feature is unique and provides benefit to end users. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Complex Scripts ==
What does "Complex Scripts" mean in this context? When people talk about complex scripts, they're not generally talking about basic things like Arabic shaping. They generally mean things like contextual shaping of Indic or rising baseline Arabic calligraphy. And this feature could have differing values for a single front end, depending on the platform. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think originally Peter meant support for Myanmar which BibleCS lacks. I take issue with the notation (with Uniscribe) because I *have* Uniscribe, and have told BibleCS to use a font that I *know* has the correct symbols, yet BibleCS can still not display the text. --[[User:mwtalbert|mwtalbert]]
::: This is a bad misunderstanding or misquote. I never singled out BibleCS in this matter. All frontends failed BurJudson, some worse some less bad. The level of support can clearly not always get answered with simply yes/no. But as such it is an important matter - as some frontends are constitutionally incapable of rendereing such scripts and others require additional work (which is fine if it works) [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 23:04, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::So, should we change the category "Complex Scripts" to "BurJudson works"? I could release a module (assuming I could get permission, that is) that would universally fail because none of the existing front ends can support its writing system. Would we then mark all front ends as not supporting complex scripts?
::The notation about Uniscribe is more descriptive than a "yes" or "no", since the best possible result any front end can report is support of ''some'' complex scripts. Unless I'm simply mistaken (which is certainly possible) and BibleCS's RTF control doesn't actually use Uniscribe, the failure to correctly render BurJudson is simply indicative of Uniscribe not completely supporting that script yet. (I will investigate whether I'm wrong about Uniscribe.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 20:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

If you could explain how you managed to get BibleCS to do anything more than display little boxes for the text in BurJudson, I'd be interested in knowing. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 04:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: I just updated BurJudson to expect [http://scripts.sil.org/Padauk Padauk] by default so following an update or manual font change it should work for you, but prior to that it had required the [http://www.thanlwinsoft.org/ThanLwinSoft/Downloads/Fonts/PadaukOT-2.1.exe PadaukOT font]. The latter has since been discontinued since SIL added OT tables to their font. If you have another Unicode font with Myanmar support, you will have to set it either in the .conf directly or via the module preferences panel. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I expected that when I changed all the Bible texts to use Padauk it would attempt to use that for BurJudson. Apparently it doesn't work that way. I changed the .conf to use Paduak instead of PadaukOT and it works now (at least to the point of showing the characters, I didn't check specific rendering issues).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

It should probably be mentioned, since BurJudson is being taken as indicative of complex script rendering capability, that Myanmar text is probably the least likely to exhibit correct rendering of any script. Myanmar was first added to Unicode at version 4.0 in 2003. Apparently no one liked the encoding model, so it was radically changed in Unicode 5.1 (released last April). As a result documents may not be updated to Unicode 5.1 encoding (I doubt BurJudson has been)--although many fonts have already been updated to Unicode 5.1's Myanmar encoding model (Padauk and PadaukOT both are). Furthermore, text layout engines may or may not be updated. (I would guess that Graphite has been updated, but the latest Uniscribe has not.) So it would be reasonable to expect a bit of chaos within the world of Myanmar text for the next couple years. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: Fair point. Do we have any other module which tests well the same concepts? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:: I'm (slowly) working on a script demo module, which will include an entry for each script identified in [http://unicode.org/iso15924/iso15924-codes.html ISO 15924]. I had intended it for testing transliteration facilities, but we can also use it to test rendering in general. More immediately, the UDHR module contains texts in many languages, using many scripts, a good portion of them complex (though about 80% of the entries are probably either Latin or Cyrillic). Notably, UDHR contains the same Myanmar text encoded using the Unicode 4.0 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 5)) and the Unicode 5.1 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 6)). --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 10:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I also think the column should go into module support next to the RtoL support - I will do this later today. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Image GenBook support ==
Users do not know what GenBook means. Are images really unsupported in any kind of module type? --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:There is a bug in Bible Desktop, that has been fixed in SVN, that did not properly determine the proper display a Dictionary (LD) with images that is also marked Category=Maps. BD/JSword support all image types that Java can render. I don't know what that is, but at least it includes all the types that we would use in a module.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

== Image Formats / other Image Module support ==
These are not things that an end-user cares about. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
: I agree. I think this can be generalized to a bigger issue. Karl has a wonderful repository of non-official, very useful modules. These may show problems in end-user applications. For example, if his map modules have png images, then there is some front-end that does not support it. The user cares about available modules working or not working.
: I already mentioned the Bible Desktop bug regarding LD image modules marked as Maps. While I routinely test JSword/BD against all CrossWire modules, I don't against Karl's repository. Given it's visibility and value, I think I should.
: The bigger question is how do we note short-comings/bugs in a particular application? I don't think this is the appropriate venue. (Though I don't mind JSword being called out as lagging SWORD.)--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I have to run to church right now, but as soon as I get a chance, I'm going to nuke the whole Images category down to a single, uninformative "Supports Images" column, universally marked with "yes". --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

What was this, Osk? I have restored the section and would appreciate if it stays up. This section has meaning and is reflected in existing modules [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

To be clear this is not about bugs but about frontend limitations - so once it is clear that all frontends can actually deal with all module types then the point simply gets deleted and amalgamated in the "all frontends do xyz" list. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:All front ends support basically the same set of features, with respect to images, in either their current release or in SVN. And these are not end-user concerns, they are developer concerns. Users don't know which format module images use or which kind of module they will appear in, they simply expect content they download to work. So this whole section is completely unnecessary to users. Front end developers don't need it either, since all limitations have already been worked around (namely, the SVN versions of all front ends should now support JPEG & PNG images in all module types). (I don't consider other formats necessary, so we won't ever release content that uses other image formats.) The particulars of which versions of various front ends support which formats & which module types may be useful to content developers, but I can advise them of that during the submission process, and this need not be included as part of a feature matrix aimed at end users. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Do they? If all frontends (at current svn level) can have all module types laced with images this column will obviously go the same way as any other column which is all round "yes". Wrt image formats - svg is the one notable format which brings enormous benefits (due to its translatability) , so svg support is something which is valuable. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

There are already modules that have images in gif format, so I think it should be listed. Not sure why it should *never* be supported. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Study Notes ==
What are study notes in the tagging section? [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 09:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:Study notes are simply a text editor type note taking facility which then can get exported - e.g. for sermon preparation. This could have gone just as well to '''other''', or where ever, but in the end it is often the final result of a search and bookmarking exercise that you go and write something up which tyou then print and take somewhere else. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 22:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::Personal study notes in a multi-user OS may be ''global'' (all users see them) or ''individual'' (current user sees only his/her own). Could we include a table row that shows which applies? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== BibleCS Portability ==
BibleCS is not properly portable. For once I'm not even applying the stringent PortableApps.com "stealth" requirements. It depends on some libraries (which they are escapes me) and controls which may not be installed on the local user's machine. Also, it leaves stuff all over the place in the registry, and registers itself and so on in a way which leaves orphaned entries in the registry in a most horrible way. What I really complain about though is the fact that on some computers, it won't even just be "Just Works™". For reference on some issues, see [http://portableapps.com/node/10582 this thread] on PortableApps.com. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 10:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:I have just read the thread and I don't think it applies. BibleCS is properly portable wrt to the registry, but it takes some work. First, one has to install it to the default location, which uses the registry. Then one copies c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to a thumb drive. Then it is un-installed from the local machine. This is a one time operation. Second, the user has to use the built-in module installer and not the windows modules downloaded from CrossWire in Windows format. The latter uses the registry. Is it this specific path that prevents the "Just Works". It would be simple enough to zip the contents of that directory and make it available as a portable download. Would that qualify as "Just Works"?
:As to the library problem, if you can recall them that would be great. This it the first I have heard of this.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::It registers all sorts of messy things... in my books, that ruins it, but it still Just Works™. See my comment a bit lower down as to the rest. Absolute paths can be a big problem though. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:You can't recall which libraries it requires because it doesn't. Everything needed by BibleCS is contained within its directory. It writes a few registry entries, but does not need them for its own functioning (only for private protocol calls). And those registry entries really could be deleted upon exit, if desired. So if you move BibleCS around to computers other than that to which it was installed, it will work perfectly fine. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::Got a feeling it was the rich text component or something. The protocol and executable registration is a nuisance as well, and I'd need to test whether it was really dependant on these - if so, it's unlikely to run as a limited user on a new machine. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

FWIW I consider this discussion a bit beside the point. If something runs off a USB drive it is portable in all practical sense. If it leaves a little bit of bit-garbage behind then it is still ''portable'', but not ''securely portable'' in the sense that no one will ever know you used it there - but that is a second matter. If the reason that you do not want to leave anything behind is indeed your physical or job security then even portable apps has a massive problem - and that is teh fact that USB drives get logged by Windows - at least if you do a half decent set-up. The only way to securely (in that particular sense) deploy an application is by running it off a bootable CD. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 08:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to get involved in this discussion, as it doesn't matter to me at all. However, I just uninstalled BibleCS from my Windows 7 computer, and it left icudt38.dll, InstallManager.exe, and userprefs.conf in the installation directory. Perhaps something is wrong in the uninstaller? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:small addition. I could not find any registry keys left behind. Also, I performed the uninstall on XP, and it left the same files behind, although the installer briefly flashed that it was uninstalling InstallManager.exe. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 05:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

::My opinion as the original author of the installer: The uninstaller leaving modules and application generated content is not a bug. But leaving icudt38.dll and InstallManager.exe is. Conceptually the installer installs two parts: BibleCS specific parts (the executables and their dlls) and shareable parts (i.e. locales.d, the modules and other things that all SWORD apps can use). I think it should have an option regarding the shareable parts. It probably should put these elsewhere and not in "The SWORD Project" directory.

:::My personal opinion is that leaving anything at all under Program Files is a bug. As a user, I would expect to be able to delete that and not delete my personal preferences as I would expect them to be stored with all my other application preferences. That's beside the point here. If it helps any, I did choose to leave the shared parts during both uninstalls. Perhaps InstallManager.exe and icudt38.dll got put in the wrong place in the uninstall script?--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll try again. [[User:Osk|Osk]] reverted my correction last time I did it. BibleCS, when run from a USB disk, '''will''' leave stuff behind; for starters (I haven't done a full scan, but these are the ones I remember and found):

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\sword.exe (put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\SharedDLLs\[install path]\sword.exe (not sure, probably put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\sword (sword:// protocol, put in by BibleCS, not sure if BibleCS depends on it)

If any of these are created by BibleCS if they are not there, which they are, then it '''does''' leave traces on the host machine.

Perhaps we could also say "don't use the Install Manager", as I understand it just plain doesn't work (it was the main reason Kevin Porter abandoned The SWORD Project for Windows Portable). At least, though, can we remove the word "no" in "leaves no traces on host machine" once more? [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

: No, actually, no I didn't. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 15:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:: It was me who changed this. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:Chris, did you find these keys on a computer that did not have them after running sword.exe or InstallManager.exe from the USB drive? I find that hard to believe. My experience, if you use the installer to install it to a USB device, it will leave traces on the computer on which you did the install. But if you install it temporarily to a computer and copy c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to the USB drive and then use that USB drive on a different computer, it should not change the registry of that machine. AFAIR, it is the installer that puts these keys into the registry, not the program. AFAIR, the InstallManager.exe does not change the registry, either. This program will use the mods.d and modules folder in the same directory to write it's modules.

:: In the thread last year "[GnomeSword-developers] win32 installer for testing", Chris Little said: "I'm not sure whether you're setting the private protocol handler in the installer or in the GS app, but you should be aware that BibleCS sets the handler to call itself every time it is launched. (It also sets the private protocol handler used by Logos iff it is not already set.)". So just based on that I would say it does set registry entries on startup, not on install. Not sure about installmanager, though [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 02:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll put together a PortableApps version of BibleCS this weekend so that we can put the whole issue to rest. No need to continue debating, but continue if it makes you happy. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

: A PortableApps version now sits in SVN. Running with the commandline argument "--noreg" will disable writing to the registry. When 1.5.12 drops, I may package a PortableApps installer. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

== Windowing and Text Display ==

I have taken out the Complex Scripts bit and shoved into Module support - it belongs more into that category. The narrative for windows display I think is best expressed in an adequate screenshot. The relevant principles which can be answerd with yes/no are - so far, I think, please add
# Un/linkable texts - e.g Commentary and Bible or several Bibles (both needs to be present - linking and unlinking)
# Parallel display of whole passages in a side by side fashion,
# the ability to hide unneeded Windows/screen areas.
# The ability to have several texts of a kind open at different books/chapters and being able to switch forward and backward
# Unconnected passages on one tab/window

A fair number of BD's list of Others is conceptually also an expression of verse lists

[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

What exactly is meant by poetry display here? Xiphos does display poetry with the correct line breaks and indentation (as in the module, but not exactly as the printed ESV as BPB does)--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Installer ==
Refdoc, I see that you have that BibleCS's installer sorts modules by language. I don't see that. I see it by type only.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
:Have I? mistake. This layout of the table is much better, but i still get confused occasionally. Please do check. Thanks [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] Sorted. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

==Soon?==

I really do not like "soon" as an entry. What is the cut off point for soon? I'd rather that things are yes/no/partial/not applicable and once something is implemented it will change to yes. Otherwise we will have a totally meaningless table. My honest/humble opinion. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 13:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I had a second look at what you marked as soon and I think this is actually fair enough - but I remarked it as partial. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 14:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I think soon or planned are fine categories, but it needs to have specific meaning. To me "soon" means that the capability is in beta and is generally available for testing. Perhaps, "beta" would be better than "soon" and it would have a link to the beta. To me "planned" means that the feature has been checked into source code control and will be part of the next release. Right now we have "yes" with footnotes stating this or that will be available with 1.5.12. Perhaps, "ready" would be better than "planned".--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Indexed Search ==

We have listed the technology, but what are the practical differences? Do all applications index on the same fields? Presumably yes, in which case the technology should be come an internal like other toolkits used. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 16:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The practical outworkings of above technological differences could/should form simply new rows - like crossboundary searches etc.[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

I agree with the new rows. Not sure what they should be.

Compared to SWORD (with key, body and strong), JSword indexes these and additional fields, allowing:
* note:(Abraham) - Find verses with notes about Abraham
* xref:(John 3:16) - Find verses with cross-references to John 3:16. (JSword will normalize the reference to an OSIS ID.)
* heading:(Moses) - Find verses with headings containing Moses.
JSword indexes also allow stemmed searches. It also has different analyzers for different languages. Our Thai analyzer, is necessary to get the word breaks correctly.

The other thing that a search engine bring is a search syntax. Each is different. CLucene and Lucene have the same syntax. I presume BPBible and MacSword have a different one.

Even with Lucene and CLucene, there are differences. JSword can use a SWORD index, but SWORD can't use a JSword index. The reason is that JSword is using Lucene 2.x and Clucene is compatible with 1.4.x. These have different storage formats. CLucene will never catch up with Lucene. We moved away from 1.4.x for outrageous performance gains.

The other thing that JSword has (and I think some others do) is passage restricted searching. This is layered on top of the search engine. If there is a different engine being used by an app, this feature might not be there.

That an app uses Lucene/CLucene/Apple Search/Custom is not a user concern, but it's impact is. One impact of MacSword using Apple's search is that it is available to Spotlight, the global search of the Mac. This is awesome!
--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 18:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Which make sme think whether at least Linux applications could not do the same - beagle etc. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 18:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

In addition to this, BibleTime also indexes several fields that Xiphos and SPW do not. I believe they include the fields that JSword indexes. This is an important distinction, and one where the official Sword indexing is lagging behind these others (at least as regards fields indexed, but it's a definite negative imo) As far as I know, only Xiphos and SPW are using the official Sword indexing --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==

The second table under this heading should be transposed, and should use abbreviations for the frontend applications. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:No. It is the source table for the first table it is the last table not completely imported into the vertical format. Once completely imported it will get deleted. Reason for the delay being thet I a) had no time for it yet and b) there are some things which do not add up in my testing [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 19:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

== Do any frontends or modules also install fonts? ==

Another question to ask of each application is, "Do any frontends or modules also install fonts?". [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::none do as far as I am aware [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:::The Xiphos Windows installer does install fonts --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if this is what was meant. More rather would/could the programme chase up needed fonts and download them. Or did I misunderstand you David? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

The program FlashCards (Greek/Hebrew learning tool) will load a font without installing them to the local OS. Not installing them locally is important for PortableApps' "leave no trace." I've thought of adding this capability to JSword and distribute some SIL fonts with it. It would be cool to be able to specify by URL some fonts to download. My thought it that we would host a open source fonts on the CrossWire server and serve them as we do modules and a new conf's entry FontSource would provide that URL.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:You can install and uninstall fonts temporarily with a DLL call and a window message. In NSIS, it's ''System::Call "gdi32::AddFontResource(t'X:\Fonts\file.ttf')i .r2"'' and ''System::Call "gdi32::RemoveFontResource(t'X:\Fonts\file.ttf')i .r2"'', each one followed by ''SendMessage ${HWND_BROADCAST} ${WM_FONTCHANGE} 0 0'', where HWND_BROADCAST is 0xFFFF and WM_FONTCHANGE is 0x001D. r2/$2, the return value, gets filled with 0 if it failed. You'll need to convert this into another langauge if you want to use it other than in NSIS though, of course. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

== Display of information about the source text? ==

Frontends differ in the amount of information they display about the source text for each module, and on how they manage this. This too needs a comparison chart. It's especially important for textual provenance and copyright status, etc. It is a chore to always have to refer to the CrossWire downloads page. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
:Among the frontends with which I am familiar, BD does this very nicely. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Syncrhonized scrolling? ==

Do all frontends that support parallel texts also provide an optional setting for synchronized vertical scrolling? If not, please compare. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::do any? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
::BD, MS, SPW, (others?) show their parallel Bibles in the same pane with a single scroll bar. BD also allows for commentaries to be shown in parallel view. So all of these have synchronized vertical scrolling. In BD (and perhaps the others) you can choose to show Bibles in different views (tabs or windows) and each has their own scroll bar. From what I have heard, but not seen, I believe Xiphos is unique in that you can tie any two verse number based views together (i.e. Bibles and/or Commentaries) and scrolling one will scroll the other so that they show the same material (in so far as is possible).
:::If Xiphos has this, I do not know how to do it :) I've considered adding a feature like this and would like to sometime, but it is not there now.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::I should add that Xiphos does allow parallel scrolling in the same manner as others. Not with commentary (yet).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== GIFs ==

I removed the note about GIF in graphics format support, changing it to JPEG only. I can see no reasonable reason to support GIF in Sword. PNG is far superior at all of the things GIF was previously used for. You can achieve the same or better quality with greater compression using PNG rather than GIF. Also, we don't actually support GIF on BibleCS, though it would take about 10 minutes to add support for it. (None of this has anything to do with the patents that encumbered GIF in the past, since they're all expired.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 00:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:As I noted above, there are already modules using GIF; there may be cases where content is already in GIF, in which case it's perhaps easiest to just leave it that way. If it's trivial to add it, why not just add it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

::To my knowledge, there is only one module using GIFs, and it's not CrossWire content. Material in GIFs can be bulk converted to PNGs. The only officially supported image file format is JPEG (although the first image test module actually consisted of BMPs). I think it's very reasonable to expand that to include PNGs, since they are useful in a variety of circumstances where JPEG is an inferior choice. But I can't see anything that GIF offers that PNG doesn't do better. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there is one argument I can see for (whatever not officially supported) image format - and that is copyright restrictions. Stuff like "distribute at will, but do not change in any form or way". Having said this I have not come across this wrt image formats and would consider a limitation of formats which ensures that all frontends can make equal use of it is a useful thing. What might be worthwhile though - and that goes way beyond this particular comparison page is a test module with every semi-relevant image format under the sun thrown in and then we could map which frontends (and not just the PC/Mac) ones can deal with them. It is clear that Webkit and Xul derrived fronends are pretty limitless in their support, while others might be a lot more restricted. It would be good to know. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Osk, this is a strong statement, even though I agree with it. I think that our "module making" guide should be explicit in stating "Only use jpeg now and after 1.5.12, you can also use png. Using any other kind of image will result in a module that cannot be used in one or more SWORD applications. Submission of a module with other image formats will hinder its acceptance into the CrossWire repository as such images will need to be converted into a supported format."--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 13:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== BpBible and font handling ==
<s>I think there is some serious misunderstanding here - unless I do not understand BpBible or do something seriously wrong. When I run BpBible I can change the fonts used to display material. But I can '''not''' set a font for a specific module - FarTPV with Nazli while ESV with Times new Roman. This is meant with font per module - or All Farsi modules get to use Nazli while all English ones use Sans Serif. The font handling of BpBible does not work when e.g. an Armenian module and a Farsi commentary is open as there is no font handling both languages. So I reverted Ben's contribution here. </s>[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 00:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Are you using 0.4? It does this. [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 00:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::refdoc: file->set fonts--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
<s>.Yes I use 0.4. But using file-setfonts results in all texts on dispolay changing their font. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]</s>
Sorry, my apologies Ben - I had downloaded 0.4 but was using 0.3 on this laptop. I test on a couple of different machines and got mixed up. This is now corrected. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Software & module updates - checking for updates via a proxy server? ==

If your frontend is installed on a computer that accesses the internet via a proxy server, when the application checks for either software updates or module updates, one of the features we should expect is whether this has configurable support for access via a proxy server. Please compare on this. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:For an example of a program that does this nicely, see [http://www.docu-track.com/home/prod_user/PDF-XChange_Tools/pdfx_viewer PDF-XChange Viewer]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think all which use a module manager do this.

Xiphos does not allow specifying a proxy server and I have not seen such a feature in any of the other programs. In linux, Xiphos should pick this up from the environment. On Windows, I do not know what the behavior would be. For Xiphos, I suspect that this would be something that would have to be added to the engine, although I don't know for sure. Perhaps there is an environment variable that curl will pick up. Although we haven't had reports yet, this is something that concerns me. I know from experience that configuring a program to use FTP through one or more firewalls, plus a proxy server is very difficult, particularly when the program doesn't allow setting the proxy manually but expects the environment to handle it. So in summary, no not all which use the module manager do this, certainly not Xiphos. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that the first time I ever used GnomeSword, I was behind a proxy (this was in linux, of course). I don't believe I ever got it working properly.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I just realized that BibleDesktop does allow specifying a proxy server. I believe this was why I first used BD rather than one of the other frontends. Kudos, DM --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]], thank you. The other thing that we do is http rather than ftp. Many firewalls block ftp but not http. (We still have the old ftp code lying around, but it was being blocked by XP SP2) So when we added http we also added proxy.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 04:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Friendly dates? ==

What is meant by friendly dates? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
:23 of February instead of 02.23 [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:Also it should be in the user's language.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Footnote expansion ==

The reported "1221 character limit" in BibleCS footnotes is an issue somewhat--and there's a fairly simple fix that we put out in some test builds back when the NET was being encoded. But it should be borne in mind that the NET, as encoded, is not official CrossWire content and warnings were given at the time it was produced about long footnotes. It's not clear to me that this is really a failing in BibleCS, rather that the NET is badly encoded (and I know others have the same opinion, if for other reasons, such as bad character encoding). So, ability to display improperly long footnotes should be fixed in BibleCS, but the single case where this arises as a problem should also be repaired. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 19:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

::This problem is not just for the NET. I have seen other things truncated, such as Strong's entries. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 21:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay... I spent a couple minutes testing this and can explain the behavior. There is no "1221 character limit". Firstly, there's no set character limit, there's actually a size limit, which depends on the text itself unless you use a monospaced font and which depends on the font size you use itself. Almost all notes, Strong's entries, etc. will display fine, assuming you don't increase the font size. But I have verified that Eccl 1.1 note 1, the longest note in NET according to Karl, does still get truncated. So I still think BibleCS should apply the NOTES commentary virtual module that we tested briefly. And I still think the NET is poorly encoded. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::one of the first things I do is increase the font size. You're saying that it shouldn't be considered a bug if you can read it without increasing the font size. This is fairly horrible program design in my opinion. It is surely something I would want to know as a user. Again, I haven't actually tried the NET, I saw this with other notes. See, for example, http://picasaweb.google.com/ransom1982/Gnomesword#5277582407118819138. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::: No, I didn't say it wasn't a bug. The report was erroneous. I have corrected it. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 11:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::: Except that I wouldn't consider 15 lines extremely long. Perhaps it should say something about depending on the font size. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 16:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::So I tried it at my preferred font size of 14pt. It truncates after about 15 lines, which happens fairly frequently for the NETfree I was testing, and for strong's references routinely for another module I have. This module is not using the default strong's but one with somewhat longer definitions (privately created). In addition, with NETfree, many of the Greek words were unreadable in the footnotes. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::::If the module is shipped with a default font that has inadequate precomposed Greek coverage (or with no default font at all when the user has his default font set to one with inadequate Greek coverage), then, yes, Greek obviously won't show up correctly. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 11:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::::Actually, this isn't obvious at all. The program should either use Window's normal font fallback methods or provide its own. Windows by default has excellent fallback mechanisms so if any font on the system has the symbol, Windows will substitute that font. Xiphos is dependent on Pango which has chosen to ignore the Window's methods for this and instead provides another fallback mechanism. It isn't as reliable (imo), however, it will certainly allow multiple fonts to be used in a single text to fulfill all of the symbols needed. So if BibleCS can't do this at all (and it can't as far as I can tell) that's another serious limitation. There are relatively few fonts with good enough coverage on their own to cover multiple languages in the same text, so fallback mechanisms are essential. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 16:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::::::I'll try to check into this further, but BibleCS does use a font fallback mechanism (there are more than one used in Windows). You can see this by loading a Chinese text, for example--they don't specify fonts, but grab the correct font using (I believe) HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\FontLink\SystemLink. The problem with relying on such a fallback mechanism is that they trust the fonts when they report their coverage. The font in this case reports that it supports Greek, which is correct. Arial & Times New Roman, which are the most common default fonts, depending on your color scheme, support basic Greek, but not pre-composed polytonic. The only other default font in one of the shipping schemes, Tahoma, has no problem displaying polytonic Greek. This comes down to a module error, more specifically a .conf error, since it could all be corrected by specifying a different font. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:08, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

: Well--my bad for having implemented this and then deleted or lost it, but I dug through the mailing list archives for the discussion of virtual modules and think it should be fairly easy to re-create the NOTES commentary virtual module. Some further discussion of this and other virtual modules here: [[Whiteboard/Virtual_Modules]]. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

== Poetry Indentation levels ==

Probably 1 level or 2 level does not accurately describe what is being referred to here. BPB has poetry support for the ESV to match the printed version. This requires indenting on more than just the first line (which is what Xiphos does). See http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=psalm+1&src=esv.org for a comparison. Also search the sword-devel archives for this "Poetry and indented lines".

: The ESV SWORD module does not mark up 2 level poetry using standard OSIS. OSIS does not support such a notion. When I created the OSIS for the ESV, I preserved the markup in the original file using types. So there are <l> elements with type="x-br". This is entirely an invention of mine. It is not reasonable to have any x-types that I make up for a particular module as being meaningful. That is, I don't think any frontend should look for x-br on a <l> element and do something different. If we update the module, this may change. If we discuss it and then document the behavior in [[OSIS Bibles]] that would be fine.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 19:58, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:: This looks like an appropriate response to the email I referenced above, which got no replies. Perhaps you should reply to it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:16, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
::: I'd be glad to, but I'm not sure which one you are referring to. Would you mind giving date and subject? Thanks.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 22:53, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::::As above, subject is "Poetry and indented lines", date is 11/04/08. Direct link http://www.crosswire.org/pipermail/sword-devel/2008-November/029486.html --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

: Actually, according to the email, BPB is using the "x-indent" marker for this, which seems like a very reasonable thing to do. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

:I've replied to the email and based upon Osk's response I have updated [[OSIS Bibles#Marking poetic material]] to indicate that the level attribute indicates indentation. Now it is a matter for SWORD and JSword to do something in their renderers if they don't already and for modules with non-standard indentation to be fixed up.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 18:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

== Print options, scope and features ==

It may be useful to compare print options, scope and features for all the frontends. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 11:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

:Section added, and first row partially filled. ''Would others please fill in the blanks. Thanks''. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 14:18, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

== Is this page near completion yet? ==

The page now contains a mass of detailed information - there have been fewer edits of late - so is it near enough complete such that is now ready to be linked from the main page? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 14:42, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
:As no-one has responded, I have now linked it from the main page. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 16:57, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

== Module Management table needs updating to match FireBible 1.1 ==

Brian recently announced '''FireBible 1.1''', for which he stated: "Added Book manager which allows you to install/uninstall books and set book/language fonts from within FireBible (this is the BD book installer)".

A consequence of this is that the Module Management table needs to be updated for the FB column. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 21:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

:I have just made a start towards this. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 21:24, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

::Brian did a lot more edits, though I am puzzled why FB<>BD for "User is warned if module already exists", as they both use the same JSword module manager. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 21:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

:::JSword, which is not a GUI, allows one to ask if a module already exists. It is up to the frontend to ask and do something with the answer. There should be no difference if FB uses BD's installer.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 23:27, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

== Search features ==

Though the SWORD (and JSword) API has a very powerful search syntax, not all of the front-ends compared in the search table make the maximum use of the API search capabilities. This is why I just added two rows to that table, and edited the wording of the first sentence in the common features section. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 22:22, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

== Aesthetics and software skins ==

I have just added a row for '''Skinnable''' to the last table. Has anyone begun to consider the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics aesthetic] aspects of our various front-end applications? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 17:20, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

:It's nice to see that in [http://www.crosswire.org/study/ The Bible Tool] the user can select from a choice of Themes. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

::I'm apprehensive about this section. All of the front ends can take skins or themes according to the extent to which their platform permits these and to which they use native UI components. None of them have actual skinning facilities themselves. Most can change text & background colors, and a few can save preset text & background themes. I don't actually think this is something that anyone considers when choosing between pieces of software. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:33, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

:::Fair comment. Let's leave it in to promote some creative thinking. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 09:29, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

== Alkitab Bible Study 2.4 ==

Does anything on the main page need to be updated now that ABS 2.4 has been released? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 09:41, 3 November 2009 (UTC) 
tonny> I guess the main page is fine with me, I only need to update Alkitab again to 2.4.1 to use updated robinson module.
:Sign & date edits to wiki discussion/talk pages automatically by adding four tilde (~) characters. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 14:38, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

== PocketSword ==

Now that PocketSword 1.0 has been released for the iPhone and iPod touch, it would make sense to add a column to all the tables to indicate how it compares feature-by-feature. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 09:56, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

:Reminder – this still needs doing. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 13:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

::Hmmm, yes it does! Will try to do this in the next couple of weeks... One of the reasons I haven't done this yet is because there's no real choice for which iPhone SWORD program to use. It's either PocketSword or PocketSword or PocketSword! ;) --[[User:Niccarter|Niccarter]] 01:03, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

:::Even so, I still think it helps to compare features in this page. Thanks for making such a good start. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 10:15, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

== Newspaper column format for text display? ==

Do any of the front-end applications have an option to display the Bible text in multiple columns as in a newspaper? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 09:57, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

== Supports Unicode 5.0 (or later)? ==

What does this mean? What is its significance? I think this is just increasing the noise to signal ratio of the page, which is already extremely high. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:03, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
:This may be reverted. No need to panic. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

== Bookmarks: Delete all ==

Go Bible v2.4.0 will include an option to '''Delete all''' bookmarks, so I have added a row to the table for Bookmarking, etc. Maybe more useful for mobile applications to keep performance in trim. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 11:14, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

== Daily readings - how they work when you click a reference ==

Apart from the rows for '''start from today''' & '''friendly dates''', there are other differences between front-ends in how they work when you click on a Bible reference link in a daily devotionals module. This is particularly significant when the module is just a calendar scheme for daily readings. IMHO, '''BD''' gets this just right. The main Bible window simply switches to the selected passage. Other front-ends, such as Xiphos, do things differently. I think this aspect needs to be drawn out for comparision in the main page. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 09:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

== Shows XXX Introductions ==

I question why this set of categories includes testament introductions. I've just checked every English Bible and found not one of them to include content more interesting than...
* <milestone type="x-importer" subType="x-osis2mod" n="$Rev: 2213 $"/>
...and the only UI that supports it at all is SPW. Adding this capability was on my Xiphos to-do list for eons, but just today I finally went to see what modules actually put it to use, and the answer is...None. I haven't checked any non-English Bibles yet, but I suppose I wonder at the utility of listing something that is both unused in module content and unsupported in display. The row should be deleted from the table, as it promises something that will literally never be seen. --karl

: I could certainly be wrong, but I have a suspicion that we have some commentaries with testament intros. OT intros are probably more likely than NT, considering module intros will get stuffed in that slot. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 00:14, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

:: Not one. grep -l ModDrv.*Com * | xargs grep -l Lang=en | xargs grep '^\[' | tr -d '\r]' | grep -v from | cut -f2 -d[ | while read b ; do echo $b ; mod2imp $b | grep Testament.*Heading ; done --karl, 09 Apr 18:01 EDT

::: re: "it is not unique in listing a feature that is unimplemented elsewhere and unused in content" -- fine, what else is like that, and why do (should) we keep any such items around, considering that they appear to be a pure waste of descriptive space? a feature that is never implemented is by definition not actually a feature. --karl, 30 Apr 14:51 EDT

:::: Companion module support --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:58, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

::::: No, not correct. Several of my own modules use it; the reason for having implemented the capability is due to the interest of Wycliffe/SIL, and I have been in contact with their users regarding its use there (albeit it's been a while since I last heard from Neil). If there is actual use of testament headings known somewhere, such as in private development or private repository deployment, then fine, otherwise it still makes little sense to keep the item. --karl, 03 May 11:12 EDT

:::::: So if there exists no publicly available content, it still makes sense to list a feature specific to an individual front end, as if presence or absence of that feature ought to be a determining factor in choosing between front ends? I don't actually object to leaving companion modules on the list (though I think they need some explanation in a footnote, since all of about a dozen people will actually know what they are--none of them likely to be reading this article for information). The "unimplemented in anything but SPW" reason appears no longer to be valid, as MS2 now lists support. We could condense the three intro lines into a single line with T/B/C listed for testament/book/chapter intro, but then we'd effectively be listing front ends other than MS2 & SPW as having "partial" support for introductions, to which I'm sure there would be objection. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 20:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

== Localization - contacts across the world ==

I have email contact with several people that we could approach for help with localizations. Please contact me directly, and I will forward your request to the appropriate persons. e.g. I can probably help fill the gaps for Xiphos in regard to Afrikaans and Japanese. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 07:50, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

== New row in module management: Downloaded modules can be indexed immediately without restart ==

After downloading a new module in Xiphos (Windows) last week, I found that I had to restart Xiphos before I could index it. This explains why I have added a new row. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 11:33, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

This might be true for SPW (as you have to restart to even use the new modules), but it is certainly not true for Xiphos. If you found a problem with it, please let us know. [[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 21:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Module Requests

2009-11-13T08:21:44Z

Mwtalbert: /* Mongolian NT (in Mongolian vertical script) */ additional info and reference

== Bibles from Visionneuse ==
You can download or read online the Bible in Hausa, Swahili and other languages on the French-speaking website [http://visionneuse.free.fr/ La Bible multilingue]. On the main page, as examples, I have added four downloads available. I have made the assumption that these are all public domain, but anyone taking this further would need to check more rigorously. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 13:38, 7 August 2008 (MDT)

=== See also ===
* [http://hausaonline.wordpress.com/2006/06/29/bible-in-hausa-swahili-and-other-languages-online/ Hausa online] blog. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 13:40, 7 August 2008 (MDT)

== Wolof NT ==

I am trying to establish contact with the copyright holders of the Wolof NT. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

== Grammar Uses Version ==

The text of the '''Grammar Uses Version''' ''preface'' is posted in a forum found at [http://forum.mybible.de/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=391&sid=8ce8ac0057af9ac4412306b7ec619ad7]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
: The GUV is also listed as a beta download at CCEL.[http://www.ccel.org/olb/tolbss/components/translations/english.html#Grammer%20Uses%20Version%20(Beta)] [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

== Catalan Bible ==

A '''Catalan''' translation was completed in the year 2000 by Pau Sais & Samuel Sais and belongs to [http://www.ibecat.org/ INSTITUCIÓ BÍBLICA EVANGÈLICA DE CATALUNYA]. There is an online version at [http://www.ibecat.org/BIBLIA/] and at [http://www.biblija.net/biblija.cgi?lang=ca]. I have not placed this in the main article, as I have yet to make contact with the copyright holders. It's still in my tasks list. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 16:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:''I have added this to the main page, even though making contact with the copyright holders is still in my tasks list''. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:48, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

== Luganda Bible ==

I am in the process of establishing contact with the Luganda Bible web-master for the version hosted by [http://www.lutheransonline.com/servlet/lo_ProcServ/dbpage=page&GID=01211001361002498027487858&PG=00027000001073059075147237 Lutherans Online]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 13:47, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
:There are two broken links (Filemooni & 1 Yokaana) in their ToC, which I have reported. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 13:50, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
::No response yet. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 16:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
:You can also find Luganda Bible online at [http://lugandaministry.org/Bible.html]. It is laid out Book by Book and Chapter by Chapter, except for some corrections to be made in the text due to some scanning errors. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 16:14, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
::Email request sent 2008-11-11. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 12:59, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
:::The Luganda Bible online at the Luganda Ministries website was published there without the permission of UBS who are the copyright owners. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

== La Bible King James Française 2007 (traduction de Nadine Stratford) ==

The '''French KJV''' page states, " [http://www.456-bible.com/ 456-bible.com] et [http://www.123-bible.com/ 123-bible.com] in addition to [http://www.kingjamesfrancaise.com/ kingjamesfrancaise.com] sont les seuls sites de la traduction originale de Nadine Stratford. Tous droits réservés pour cette adaptation. Vous ne devez pas copier cette traduction sans en demander autorisation à la traductrice. Copie autorisée pour utilisation personnelle gratuite, mais non pour republier sur un autre site Web..".
:In English: " [http://www.456-bible.com/ 456-bible.com] and [http://www.123-bible.com/ 123-bible.com] in addition to [http://www.kingjamesfrancaise.com/ kingjamesfrancaise.com] are the only sites for the original translation by Nadine Stratford. All Rights Reserved for this adaptation. You must not copy this translation without asking permission from the translator. Copying is authorised for personal use but not for republishing on another website ..". [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 11:25, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

== Richard Wynne (1764) NT ==

The full title is "The New Testament: carefully collated with the Greek and corrected; divided, and pointed according to the various subjects treated of by the inspired writers, with the common division into chapters and verses in the margin; and illustrated with notes.." Published: London : R. & J. Dodsley, 1764. Richard Wynne was Rector of St Alphage London. A COPAC search indicates several holdings, including the British Library. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 14:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

== Oleksandr Gyzha's new Ukrainian Bible translation ==

I have made contact with the web-master (Oleksandr Volyk) with request for permissions. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:26, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
:Permissions received in email referring to phone call between O. Volyk and O. Gyzha (17 November 2008). Message forwarded to scribe. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 07:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

== Translators' contacts made by David Haslam in the context of his Go Bible activities ==

I am in the process of adding to the main page some mention of the various contacts that I have made with a number of Bible translators or copyright owners that I have established in the context of my Go Bible activities. I will generally refrain from mentioning people by name. Contact is at a different stage for various Bible translations, as is the question of permissions being asked on behalf of CrossWire, since much of this activity pre-dated my closer collaboration with CrossWire. ''From time to time, I will also share other information privately with scribe and refdoc''. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 21:42, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
:[http://noloshacusub.net/Bible/ Nolosha Cusub] is the page for the Somali Bible known as '''Kitaabka Quduuska Ah'''. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:10, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

== Svenska Reformationsbibeln permissions ==

The following is a [http://translate.google.com/ Google translation] from Swedish of an email message sent by the publishers to Thomas Dilt, following his enquiry about distributing electronic copies in other formats.

:Thanks for your e-mail and interest in the Reformation Bible. We have previously received inquiries by a number of people who want to make our translation available in other Bible study programs. We are in favor of Reformation Bible is available for free in this way. But right now we are having some corrections in the NT and the GT will be more soon Bible books ready. When we're done with corrections in the NT, then this second edition to be a more "fixed" and clear text. First Edition tends to be something of a test translation, which then becomes adjusted to a some places. We would therefore these practical reasons to say to you that we will say yes to this, but not right now. But wait a little longer so that NT is clear and complete corrected. This saved a lot of time to add in a version that is fully completed.

:In the case of GT, it will sometimes enter corrections here. Some of our Rapporteurs will not submit its comments within the prescribed period but only after the Bible book has been out there on the website for some time. We go Time and make the necessary adjustments. Then we put out a new version on our website and the Bible book may be a new audit letter. Because it is advisable to wait here until the text is finalized.

:We put you among the others who have expressed interest in making Reformation Bible available in another format, and we will return to you when the text is more complete and "fixed."

[[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 13:29, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

== Complete Tyndale Bible ==

'''David Daniell''' is Professor Emeritus of English at University College London. He is the editor of Tyndale's translations of the Bible, '''''Tyndale's Old Testament''''' (0 300 05211 1, £30.00) and '''''Tyndale's New Testament''''' (0 300 06580 9, £10.95 pb.), and the author of '''''William Tyndale: A Biography''''' (0 300 06880 8, £8.99 pb.), and the author of '''''The Bible in English''''' (0 300 09930 4). He is also Chairman Emeritus of [http://www.tyndale.org/ The Tyndale Society].

If we wished to be able to distribute the complete Tyndale Bible, he would be the ideal person to approach. The text must have been digitized as part of a modern publication process. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 13:21, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

:David Daniell's modern-spelling editions of Tyndale's OT & NT were published by [http://www.yalebooks.co.uk/ Yale University Press], who own the copyright. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 08:35, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

== S. Townsend Weaver's NT - further details ==

'''The greatest book ever written; the New Testament in its inspired literary form''', by Rev. S. Townsend Weaver; Hard copy held at Washington, D.C., University literature extension [©1915]. Description: xxxiii, 692 p. 25 cm. OCLC: 1855807. ''Information retrieved using [http://www.worldcat.org/ WorldCat].'' [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 16:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
:He also wrote, ''The Biblical life of Jesus Christ; a standard biography of Our Lord in the words of the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, harmonized, arranged, displayed, analyzed, located, dated and described, with the relevant historical events, in accordance with the well known ancient authorities and such eminent modern Biblical scholars as Andrews, Edersheim ... etc.'' [©1911]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 16:38, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

== The Haile Selassie Amharic Bible ==

"Interlitt", the publishing arm of Lapsley/Brooks Foundation has published a complete Bible in the Amharic language of Ethiopia. It is called "'''The Haile Selassie Amharic Bible'''". The complete Bible is now available online and for download at http://www.bible.org/foreign/amharic/

"Christianity entered Ethiopia in the 4th century, and the Bible was translated into Geez (Ethiopic) thereafter. This Bible was revised in the 14th Century. The first complete Amharic Bible was produced in 1840, and went thru several revisions thereafter. The version of the Bible presented here was the fulfillment of the expressed desire of Haile Selassie, and was first published in 1962. In 1992-93, with the blessing and support of the Ethiopian Bible Society and Ato Kebede Mamo, the Director, the Bible was computerized by Hiruye Stige and his wife Genet. It is our pleasure to make God's Word, in this electronic form, available to this part of His family. Many thanks to Dirk Röckmann for his work in making this translation available. GF Zemen Unicode is the font that is used. If you are unable to see the text in Amharic font, please download the GF Zemen font."

The Amharic NT is now available in Go Bible format from [http://www.box.net/shared/d8tgh233tf]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 13:42, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

:I have a Ethiopian contact in London who is willing to assist in the process of copyright lobbying with the Ethiopian Bible Society. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:11, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

::I've had the Haile Selassie Bible in OSIS format for a while. If we get permission to distribute, it's ready to go. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 19:02, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

:::My contact at BFBS has a copy of the '''Orthodox Amharic Bible''' in USFM format. This includes pseudepigraphic works such as the '''Book of Jubilees''' and the '''Book of Enoch''', both of which are quoted in the New Testament, even though they are absent from the Western canon. This topic is generating interest among NT scholars. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 10:34, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
::::For further background information see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilees] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 10:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
::::We have, of course, editions of Jubilees & 1Enoch also available for Sword. I think I just put the Enochs back into beta, though they're actually many years old. Jubilees we have only in English translation. 1Enoch we have in English translation, as well as the Ge'ez original. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 22:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

== Wolof New Testament (Senegal) ==

I have exchanged emails with a missionary in Senegal, who is in contact with the translators of the Wolof Bible. Preliminary response is looking positive, in that I expect to hear directly in the near future regarding permissions to distribute the Wolof NT. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:53, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

== Czech Bible 21 ==

This is the text I removed today:

:* [http://www.bible21.org/ Czech Bible21]. A few weeks ago was finished a new Czech Bible translation named as '''Bible21''' (formerly known as NBK). There is already a New Testament available as a SWORD module named '''CzeNBK'''. ''Martin Zibricky has obtained permissions for CrossWire and has made a conf file for the SWORD module''. ''JensG has already made a B21 SWORD module''.

[[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 12:10, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

== Tradução Brasileira ? ==

I have just done a bit of research for this version, full Bible first published in 1917. Which CrossWire volunteer wrote, " copy obtained, working library contacts to find a book scanner."? Did they make any progress? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:34, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
:Thanks to [[User:Osk|Osk]], there is a now a SWORD module called '''PorTB''', made from [http://pt.wikisource.org/wiki/Tradu%C3%A7%C3%A3o_Brasileira_da_B%C3%ADblia]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 08:31, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

== Shona & Ndebele Bibles ==

These two Bibles could be readily made into modules by establishing a dialogue with Teus Benschop, who already participates in the SWORD Dev mailing list. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 08:23, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

: These were posted yesterday, actually. Which reminds me, I still need to submit my corrections back to the project. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 17:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

::Excellent. I've been chatting with Teus earlier today. I have just alerted him to the new modules. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:43, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

== Bug database tasks ==

For those modules from the requests page that are definitely ready to be encoded, I would suggest folks go ahead and create 'tasks' in the [http://www.crosswire.org/bugs/browse/MOD bug database]. By "ready to be encoded" I mean that a good source exists (good text, with or without markup, not images, PDFs with embedded images, or unedited OCR) and there are no licensing issues (PD or liberal licensing) or there is a good chance that licensing can be secured soon (i.e., don't add an NIV task). --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 22:31, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

== Mongolian NT (in Mongolian vertical script) ==

Firefox won't display it on either Windows or Linux. Neither will webkit (Google Chrome). It appears from some Google searches that the only browser to support this at all is Internet Explorer, which it does indeed do. Theoretically Pango (which is used by Firefox on linux and gtkhtml on all platforms) should be able to render this, but I see little evidence that it actually does. Even if it did, it would require a completely manual control (eg, not an html control) for Xiphos to support this. The lack of support for WebKit also means BibleTime won't support it. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 06:17, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

: The particulars of this website's encoding aren't important, since we would convert to Unicode. Mongolian has a less-favored horizontal layout, but it's not clear to me how disfavored it is, so I don't know the ramifications of releasing Mongolian script content that none of the front ends could render vertically. To test Mongolian script in front ends, you can look at the MONGOLIAN, HALH (MONGOLIAN) [MN-MONG] entry of the UDHR module. Windows 7, FWIW, appears to ship with a font that has Mongolian coverage. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 07:05, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

:: Just to clarify my remarks, I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with the encoding used on the site. Naturally, I did try to view the site using Firefox and others, but didn't really expect it to work. I found people specifically saying that vertical Mongolian text is not supported in Firefox, nor in any browser except for Internet Explorer. Searches for pango mongolian return absolutely nothing. Any examples of using, say, Mongolian Ubuntu show horizontal rather than vertical text. I would be curious to know if Uniscribe supports it (seemingly it does, since IE can render it). If it does, then it's possible that BibleCS's RTF control could render this. My point was more that vertical layouts aren't supported natively by either FF or webkit, therefore Xiphos and BibleTime couldn't support this without doing additional work. One reference is this page [http://m10lmac.blogspot.com/2009/08/why-no-mac-browser-support-for-vertical.html] --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 08:21, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Module Requests

2009-11-13T06:17:06Z

Mwtalbert: Mongolian Vertical script support

Here is a place to request modules you would like to be made. If the copyright holder has been contacted, the permissions granted or not can be put here.

New modules are made largely on the basis of content availability and distributability. If you have a link to new material in the public domain, adding it here is a good way of notifying us of its availability. However there is no guarantee that anyone will be interested in creating a module from that material. If you want to see a new module, your quickest results will come from encoding it in OSIS yourself and submitting that to us.

If you would like to see the addition of text currently under copyright and have not made any attempt to get permission for distribution, there is no point to adding it here and the addition will likely be removed. If you only have a link to non-text material (images, PDFs, etc.), there is no point to adding it here and it will likely be removed.

====Bible Versions====
''Background: CrossWire volunteers may like to visit [http://bibles.wikidot.com/ The Internet Bible Catalog], an experiment in creating a web-based catalogue of existing Bible Translations.''

=====English Bibles=====
''Background: For an historical survey of English Bibles, visit [http://www.bible-researcher.com/versions.html The English Versions of Scripture]. See also [http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:WikiProject_Bible Wikisource:WikiProject Bible].''

Rev. Bradford B. Taliaferro runs a blog entitled, [http://biblereadersmuseum.blogspot.com/ New and Interesting Bibles and Versions] – ''The purpose of this web-log is to list new, interesting and unusual Bibles, versions and translations''.

*Entire Wycliffe Bible (''c''. 1380), available from [http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_(Wycliffe) Wikisource], which in turn was provided by the [http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/wycliffe/ Wesley Center Online]. The entire Wycliffe Bible can be downloaded as a single ZIP file containing 77 text files in VPL format. ''cf. The existing SWORD module is limited to the Pentateuch and the Gospels.''

*Complete Tyndale Bible, Not even the whole NT is available with SWORD, and also he translated the Pentateuch, and Jonah, and other books later published in Matthew's Bible.
::[http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/24890 Jonah] (1531)
::[http://www.pgdp.net/ Gutenberg Distributed Proofreaders] is digitizing the Pentateuch (1530) (Genesis is almost done, but still being PP'ed) [http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/tyndale/ Wesley Center Online] also has all of Tyndale's translation, except those published posthumously (by Matthew Thomas). Both Tyndale and Wycliffe from the Wesley Centre are the work of Sergej A. Fedosov.

::Some problems with Sergey's work is that he doesn't transcribe the line over vowels that represented a n, or m--so the text has a lot of hi meaning him, the meaning them, wet meaning went etc...where these are not spellings that the printer used. He also transcribes the þt, þe and such thorn symbols as ye, yt instead of the, that, etc...but transcribes the "and" symbol (&) as "and".

*Miles Coverdale Bible, (1535).

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Tomson Laurence Tomson] (1587) Geneva Bible 1587 Revision. Check Slavic Bible version for (significant?) differences from 1599 Geneva.

*KJV (original 1611 version/orthography). There exist some reprints in paper - has anyone scanned it? Also a few electronic editions exist--check into adapting one for SWORD.

*Scottish Metrical Psalter (1650). This is available in Online Bible (Topic) format at [http://www.ccel.org/olb/tolbss/zipfiles/books/psalter.exe]

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Whiston William Whiston] (1745) [http://www.archive.org/details/primitivenewtest00whisuoft The Primitive New Testament] on Archive.org

*Richard Wynne (1764) [http://www.archive.org/details/newtestamentcare00wynn New Testament : carefully collated with the Greek and corrected] on Archive.org. This copy is missing the title page thru the Acts of the Apostles. (Maybe it's Volume 2 of a 2 volume set.)

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Doddridge Philip Doddridge] (1765) [http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=title%3A%28Practical%20Expositor%29%20AND%20creator%3A%28Doddridge%29 The family expositor; or, A paraphrase and version of the New Testament; with critical notes, and a practical improvement of each section] 4 volumes on Archive.org (multiple copies of some volumes)

*John Guyse (1797) [http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=title%3A%28Practical%20Expositor%29%20AND%20creator%3A%28Guyse%29 The Practical Expositor: The New Testament in the form of a Paraphrase, with Occasional Notes and recollections] on Archive.org

*Sir [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancelot_Charles_Lee_Brenton Lancelot Charles Lee Brenton] (1845) Brenton's English Septaguint. See also this description of [http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/ioscs/brenton/ Brenton's Translation of the Septuagint] on the website of [http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/ioscs/ The International Organization for Septuagint and Cognate Studies]. An online HTML version of Brenton's 1851 edition is available at [http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/septuagint-hyperlinked.html] as a single webpage, but without the appendix.

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Version Revised Version] (1885) – ''see the external links in the Wikipedia page for two online editions in HTML format, and one to a facsimile PDF copy''

*Richard C. Moulton (1907) [http://books.google.com/books?id=R5IaAAAAMAAJ Modern Reader's Bible] on Google

*S. Townsend Weaver (1909) [http://www.archive.org/details/universitynewtes00weav Weaver's New Testament] at the Internet Archive.

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Albert_Broadus John Albert Broadus] (1913) [http://www.archive.org/details/holybiblecontain00philuoft The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments:A new version based in part on the bible union version] a.k.a The Baptist Bible (recommend OSIS id ABS.) on Archive.org

*[http://bibles.wikidot.com/ballantine William Gay Ballantine] (1923) (revised ed. 1934) [http://thechan.com/ The Riverside New Testament: a Translation From The Original Greek Into The English of Today], ''needs copyright review'' According to the Google/Gutenberg copyright renewal records, this was [http://renewalrecords.urbanpug.com/show.php?id=1346 renewed in 1950], which makes it still in-copyright today. NOTE: [http://renewalrecords.urbanpug.com/ urbanpug], google, Gutenberg all have disclaimers that the database contains omissions and errors, and not finding a renewal record does NOT mean a work is PD, but finding a record does mean you have to get permission from someone.

*NASB Currently being prepared. This will be sold. See [[EnduserFAQ|FAQ]].

*NKJV, Thomas Nelson Inc. Contact attempted by Karl to rights@thomasnelson.com and onlinenotification@thomasnelson.com, December 2007; no response.

*NIV, the perennial request. Contact attempted via feedback web page at ibs.org, November 2006 and March 2007; no response. Dead-tree letter sent to IBS licensing directory, February 2008; no response.

*World Bible Translation Center (1987,1999,2006) [http://www.wbtc.com/site/PageServer?pagename=downloads_main Easy To Read Version] English translation. Rights requested 11/05/2008

*Fr. Bernardo Hurault (1988) [http://www.bible.claret.org Christian Community Bible] English translation. Rights request sent 11/04/2008. Response received 11/12/2008 from China which says the [http://www.sobicain.org Sociedad Bíblica Católica Internacional] is the copyright holder. My request is forwarded, but another in spanish is pending.

*Michael Paul Johnson (1996) [http://www.ebible.org/glw God's Living Word] is a solo translation by the editor of the World English Bible. It only covers the Gospel of John and the epistles of John, but I'd like to see it in SWORD. It's already in OSIS format at the link with creative commons (commercial use) copyright allowing redistribution.

*Contemporary English Version, contact made. The [mailto:info@americanbible.org American Bible Society] have asked for a formal request to be made to them, with information about use and protection (May 2009).

*Third Millennium Bible, contact attempted at TMBible.com, November 2007, no response.

*James Madsen (2003) New Simplified Bible. [http://www.geocities.com/simplifiedbible/EnjoyNSB15.html (author's page)]

*Gary Gallant (2007) Grammar Uses Version. "Version showing the the way verbs in a participle or infinitive tense are used when translated. Also shows noun uses when translated. This is a very literal translation from the BYZ lectures." (Available in its native OLB [http://www.fundamentalbaptists.com/host/olb/files/guv.exe] format at Gary's site.)

*Word of Yahweh Bible--KJV3, 2010 (Expected completion). Rights unknown. [http://yahavahbiblekjv3.com/site_map.html]

*[http://rockhay.tripod.com/cottonpatch/index.htm Cotton Patch Version.] Copyrighted.

*[http://logoschristian.org/mark/ The Phat News of Mark]. Copyrighted. A bit like the Cotton Patch Version.

*[http://www.2001translation.com/ 2001 Translation]. Public Domain.

*[http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28Wikisource%29 Free Bible]. Public Domain.

*[http://bookworm.oreilly.com/view/first/The+New+Testament+Letters/16015/ New Testament Letters] by Paula Fether. Copyrighted.

*[http://www.standardversion.org/aramaic_english_standard_version/aesv/aesv-index.php Aramaic English Standard Version]. Copyrighted.

*[http://www.essenescrolls.com/peshitta/index.php The Holy Peshitta of the Assembly of Jerusalem]. Copyrighted.

*[http://wordhord.org/nasb/ Anglo-Saxon Bible]. Public Domain? This is really a collection of various versified AS texts, by various translators/authors.

*[http://www.thewaytoyahuweh.com/translations The Way to Yahuweh].

=====Original languages=====

======Hebrew and Aramaic OT======

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex WLC] with Westminster Morphology

*Samaritan Torah – for background, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan_Torah]. Has this ever been digitized?

======Greek NT======
:''See the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_uncials List of New Testament uncials] on Wikipedia, for possible further leads''.

======Latin Bibles======

:''The existing Vulgate module and Vulgate_Clem beta module contain only the 66 protocanonical books, even though the complete Vulgate contains 76 books''.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate]

* [http://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Biblia_Sacra_Vulgata_%28Stuttgartensia%29 Complete Vulgate Stuttgart] (including the Apocrypha), for use with SWORD 1.6 onwards. (This is copyrighted. Stuttgart almost always indicates DBG(GBS). WikiSource is hosting a copy, in progress, but someone does note that it is copyrighted.)

* Nova Vulgata - the text is copyright (1979 onwards), so obtaining permission may be impossible. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate#Nova_Vulgata] for more details.

=====French Bibles=====
:''See also [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traductions_de_la_Bible_en_fran%C3%A7ais Traductions de la Bible en français] and [http://www.la-bible.net/page.php?ref=bible16_20_intro La Bible en français du XVe au milieu du XXe siècle].''

* La Bible Pierre Robert Olivétan, 1535. Selected books are already digitized at [http://www.ecritures-saintes.com/olivetan/]. One edition is original spelling, and one is with modern spelling.

* La Bible de Jean-Frédéric Ostervald - 1744.

* La Bible de Saci - 1759 (Bible complete traduit sur la Vulgate par le Maistre de Saci, dite aussi Bible de Mons (Port Royal)) [http://456-bible.123-bible.com/saci/saci.htm]. ''Permission to use digitized text received via contact through [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]].''

* L’Ancien Testament Traduit D’Après L’Hébreu par H.-Auguste Perret-Gentil (professeur à la Faculté de Neuchâtel) 1861, 1866. The 1861 text is available in PDF format from [http://epelorient.free.fr/].

* La Bible de Zadoc Kahn (Bible Juive: Texte complet A.T. 1899 Ed. 1930.) [http://456-bible.123-bible.com/zadoc/zadoc.htm]. ''Permission to use digitized text received via contact through [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]].''

* La Bible de Pirot et Clamer (Louis Pirot et Albert Clamer, La Sainte Bible, texte latin et traduction française d'après les textes originaux avec un commentaire exégétique et théologique, Paris 1950) [http://456-bible.123-bible.com/pirot/pirot.htm]. ''Permission to use digitized text received via contact through [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]].'' NB. Check extent of French copyright period.

* La Bible King James Française 2007 (D'après la version AV 1611, Traduction Nadine L. Stratford) [http://www.kingjamesfrancaise.com/],[http://456-bible.123-bible.com/kjf/kjf.htm]. ''2009-07-16 Email received by [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] from N. Stratford granting permissions for both Go Bible and CrossWire SWORD module''.

* La Bible - French OT translation by Édouard Dhorme (1956). Edward Paul Dhorme (1881 - 1966) was a French Assyriologist, Semiticist and translator of the Bible. He was a professor at the College de France and the Sorbonne. One of his works deals with the religions of Babylon and of Assyria. The French translation of the Old Testament was published under his direction by Gallimard in the prestigious Bibliotheque de la Pleiade. Dhorme was a Dominican. ''Not yet found en electronic version''.

* La Sainte Bible d'Ostervald - the revision of 1996.

* [http://ba.21.free.fr/septuaginta/cover.html La Septante] – French translation of the LXX.

From [http://lire.la-bible.net/ lire.la-bible.net] (read.the-bible.net)

* Traduction oecuménique de la Bible (TOB) (Copyright 1988, Société biblique française BP 47 95400 Villiers-le-Bel France et Editions du Cerf)

* La Bible dite la Colombe (Colombe) - nouvelle version Segond revisée (Copyright 1978, Société Biblique Française BP 47 95400 Villiers-le-Bel France)

* La Bible Parole de Vie (PDV) (2000) (Copyright 2000, Société Biblique Française BP 47 95400 Villiers-le-Bel France)

* La Nouvelle Bible Segond (NBS) (Copyright 2002, Société Biblique Française BP 47 95400 Villiers-le-Bel France)

* La Bible en français courant (BFC) Version révisée 1997 (Copyright 1997, Société Biblique Française BP 47 95400 Villiers-le-Bel France)

=====German Bibles=====
* [http://www.volxbibel.com/ Volxbibel] – A new German Bible translation in the language of the young generation. The translation is under the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/de/deed.en_GB Creative Commons] license, so non-commercial use and distribution is allowed. A SWORD module called VLX3 has been already created by [http://www.heidoc.net/ Jan Krohn], who has also built Go Bible applications for Java mobile phones.

* [http://heanet.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/zefania-sharp/sf_zuercher_1931.zip Zürcher Bibel 1931] – Die Ursprünge der Zürcher Bibel gehen auf die Reformation in Zürich unter Ulrich Zwingli zurück (1531). Die Zürcher Bibel von 1931 gehört zu den strukturtreuen Übersetzungen und legt dabei grossen Wert auf philologische Genauigkeit. Bezüglich Texttreue wird sie bei Vergleichen von Bibelübersetzungen meist nahe bei der Elberfelder Bibel gesehen und oft etwas lesbarer als diese beschrieben. – The ZIP file was uploaded to sourceforge on 12-Apr-2009.

=====Polish Bibles=====

* Biblia Tysiąclecia. Several Polish translations are available as Go Bible applications from [http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~ja235896/biblia/download.php]. This is one for which there is not an existing SWORD module.

* [http://sword.chrzescijanie.pl/moduly.htm Polish SWORD website]. Copyright status uncertain for some of the available modules.

=====Spanish Bibles=====
*Fr. Bernardo Hurault (1971) [http://www.bible.claret.org Biblia Latinoaméricana] a.k.a Christian Community Bible - Spanish version. Sent email 11/4/08 requesting rights. Response received 11/12/2008 from China which says the [http://www.sobicain.org Sociedad Bíblica Católica Internacional] is the copyright holder. My request is forwarded, but another in spanish is pending.

*World Bible Translation Center (after 1987) [http://www.wbtc.com/site/PageServer?pagename=downloads_main Easy To Read Version] Spanish translation. Rights requested 11/05/2008

===== Portuguese =====
''For all these, please ask for further information at sword-devel. And please read the section in the [[EnduserFAQ|FAQ]] first''.

====== Brazilian ======
*[http://www.sbb.org.br/ SBB] denied permissions, someone from Brasília intends to try again.

*SBT has been contacted, anticipating answer.

*IBB has left the door open to a future favourable answer. Need to follow up with request for permissions on Versão Revisada and its Almeida Século XXI successor.

*[[Corrigida]] low-quality copies are available, we need to evaluate if it is worthwhile to move forward: old translation, not too good, OCR will be troublesome.

*[[Tradução Brazileira]] (1917) copy obtained, working library contacts to find a book scanner. The text entered into the public domain on January 1, 1992 - the beginning of the year following the fiftieth anniversary of death of the last contributor, Virgílio Varzea in accordance with the provisions of the copyright law then in force. (SBB has published an electronic version in Online Bible (version 3) format with updated spelling. This edition is not public domain!)

====== Iberian ======
*Permissions were obtained on a number of texts from [[SBP]], as per post at sword-devel.

*World Bible Translation Center (after 1987) [http://www.wbtc.com/site/PageServer?pagename=downloads_main Easy To Read Version] Portuguese translation. (If the WBTC is amenable to allow other languages be published, I will specifically request and post here Portuguese allowance if given) The WBTC lists the version as 'Brazilian Portuguese'.

===== Welsh Bibles =====

* 1620 Translation (William Morgan's 1588, revised by Parry and Davies in 1620). [http://kimkat.org/amryw/1_testunau/sion_prys_003_beibl_mynegai_1284e.htm]. See also [[Non-CrossWire_Text-Development_Projects#Individual_Works|Text Development]]. ''Public Domain. Texts for Numbers, Deuteronomy, Judges, 1 & 2 Samuel, 1 & 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, Job, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Luke, and 2 Corinthians are not yet available.''

*Revised New Welsh Bible (Y Beibl Cymraeg Newydd). Available for free as a e-Sword Module. So Bible Society may well be happy for it to be available for SWORD as well. [http://www.beiblcymraeg.org/resources.htm], [http://www.beiblcymraeg.org/news.htm]

===== Cornish Bibles =====

* The Cornish Bible Project http://www.bibelkernewek.com/ This project is run under the auspices of the Cornish Language Board, and the Bishop of Truro's Ecumenical Advisory Group for Services in Cornish. The translations are checked against the best editions of the Hebrew and Greek texts, and will be made available in both the Unified and Common Cornish spelling systems. The New Testament (Common Cornish version), with a Commendation by the Archbishop of Canterbury, is now complete, and was published on 13 August 2004. Translation of the Old Testament is underway, with parts already published as separate booklets. Of all the Celtic languages, it was only Cornish that did not have its own translation of the Bible. This was a severe handicap: if the Bible had been translated perhaps the language would not have died.

* Testament Noweth, edited by Michael Everson. First edition, 2002. http://www.evertype.com/gram/tn.html

===== Maltese Bibles =====

* Maltese Bible. I just found this [http://www.tarxienparish.org/Il-bibbja.htm] which appears to be a Catholic website. Complete Bible (with deuterocanonical books) in MS Word format. ''Need to establish contact''.

* Maltese Bible. The Trinitarian Bible Society published theirs in 1980. with a reprint in 2007.[http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/news.asp]

* Malta Bible Society (UBS and CBF) http://www.maltabible.com/ (''No Bible downloads advertised'').

===== Arabic Bibles =====

* 1865 SVD Arabic Bible complete with deuterocanonical books & other Arabic material. See [http://www.saintmina-holmdel.org/ArabicBible/], for use with SWORD 1.6 onwards.

=====Other European languages=====

======Latin script languages======

* [http://mazsola.iit.uni-miskolc.hu/~drdani/biblia/bd/ Hungarian NT]. Roman Catholic translation by P. Békés Gellért & P. Dalos Patrik.

* [http://www.biblian.fo/ Faroese Bible]. ''Need to establish contact''.

* [http://www.hi.is/Uppl/Biblia/ Icelandic Bible]. ''Need to establish contact''.

* [http://old.bibelselskabet.dk/grobib/web/bibelen.htm Greenlandic Bible]. Danish Bible Society. ''Need to establish contact''.

* Serbian Danicic–Karadžic Bible. Vuk Karadžic translated the New Testament in 1847, and Ðuro Danicic finished his translation of the Old Testament in 1865. ''Public Domain''.

* Serbian Emilijan Čarnić (1973, 1992) NT. [http://wwwyu.com/web/]

* [http://www.bibel.se/ Svenska Reformationsbibeln]. This modern Swedish Bible translation is based on the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textus_Receptus Textus Receptus] for the New Testament. Work has begun on translating the Old Testament, based on the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text Masoretic Text]. The stance of the website is one in defence of these traditional texts, and therefore critical of modern translations made using dynamic equivalence methods and eclectic texts. The translators have currently completed the Pentateuch and all the New Testament. It may be several years before the rest of the OT is translated. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] is in indirect contact with the project leaders. They have responded positively to the request for CrossWire to distribute this new translation. A Go Bible version has been built by Thomas Dilts.

* [http://www.ibecat.org/BIBLIA/ Catalan Bible] Bíblia Evangèlica Catalana. INSTITUCIÓ BÍBLICA EVANGÈLICA DE CATALUNYA. An iPhone application[http://bec.ibible.mobi/] for this is now available, as is an e-Sword module[http://www.pedrangular.com/software/e-Sword/BEC.php]. ''In view of the BEC edition being freely available for the iPhone and e-Sword, we should make an approach to develop a SWORD module and Go Bible application''. ''Need to establish contact''.

* Slovak translations. A member of the Go Bible Forum has recently posted that he has permissions for the Slovak Catholic translation from Spolok svätého Vojtecha ([http://www.ssv.sk/ SSV]), Trnava, Slovakia. See [http://jolon.org/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=798]. ''[http://jolon.org/vanillaforum/ Login] first for the direct link to work''. This translation includes deuterocanonical books. Await first SWORD release that will support [[Alternate Versification]].

* The Maynooth Irish Bible = ''An Bíobla Naofa'' (1981) is a translation of the Bible into '''Irish Gaelic''' by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A1draig_%C3%93_Fiannachta Monsignor Pádraig Ó Fiannachta]. It includes the Apocrypha. It is available on CD-ROM[http://www.fiosfeasa.com/script/bearla/products/bible.asp]. ''John Duffy has received permissions to make a SWORD module, etc''.[http://cgcf.net/support/] Await first SWORD release that will support [[Alternate Versification]]. Work on making a Go Bible version already in progress with assistance from [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]].

* Lule Sami New Testament. A new translation of NT in ''Lule Sami'', based on an edition from 1913 but using modern orthography, was begun in 1996. The [http://www.bibelsallskapet.se/ Swedish Bible Society] was responsible for this translation which was completed in 2000. Cited from [http://www.ibtnet.org/PDF/October2005.pdf].

* Northern Sami Bible. Work is in progress on a new Bible translation in ''Northern Sami'' using the new orthography from 1980. The Gospels and Acts were completed in 1995, followed by the New Testament in the beginning of 1998. Presently, translation of the Old Testament is in progress, with a planned completion in 2008. The translation is based on the Norwegian Bible with the Norwegian and Finnish Bible Societies being responsible for the project. Cited from [http://www.ibtnet.org/PDF/October2005.pdf].

* The complete Estonian Bible (OT, NT & Apocrypha) is available online at [http://www.piibel.net/sisukord.html Piibel.NET]. (NB. The table of contents requires Javascript.) cf. The existing SWORD module '''Est''' is Genesis plus NT only. ''Worthwhile making enquiries to the [http://www.eps.ee/ EPS] about copyright permissions''. For a history of Estonian Bible translations, see [http://elm.einst.ee/issue/28/history-estonian-bible-translation/].

======Cyrillic script languages======
* Russian Synodal translation (1876), complete with deuterocanonical books, and using the [[Alternate Versification]] proper to the RSB.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Synodal_Bible] cf. The existing RST module (based on Sergej A. Fedosov's Slavic Bible for Windows) must be the protocanonical subset, as adapted to use standard KJV versification. A complete RSB is available in HTML format at [http://www.days.ru/~bible/], but would require checking for accuracy against the best known modern printed version. Tigran Aivazian has reported, "if you need the source code for our edition of the Russian Synodal Bible please email me and I'll send it. We (mostly Vladimir Volovich) have fixed quite a few typos by comparison with many other printed (and electronic) editions and believe ours to be the cleanest/accurate source of the synodal text. Btw, we have done the 5th edition recently, I hope you downloaded the PDF of the 5th and not the 4th edition (check the title page, it says at the back)." Copied from [http://jolon.org/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=626]. See [http://www.bibles.org.uk/].

* Ukrainian new translation by Oleksandr Gyzha [http://ukrbible.com/]. Email contact established with web-master. Permissions received (17 November 2008).

* [http://www.mkbible.net/ Macedonian Bible]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] has contact with the web-master of the Macedonian Online Bible site.

* Serbian Danicic–Karadžic Bible. Vuk Karadžic translated the New Testament in 1847, and Ðuro Danicic finished his translation of the Old Testament in 1865. ''Public Domain''.

* Serbian Lujo Bakotić (1933) complete Bible.

* Serbian Dimitrije Stefanović (1934) NT.

* Belarusian translation by Vasil Syomuha. "Vasilij S.Semukha translation. © 2000, 2001 by Alesya Semukha". More details about the translation and translator are reported in [http://www.privet-minsk.com/Belarusian-Bible.html]. A much fuller article about the Belarusian Bible, with the title, "Uncle Vasil's Passion" may be found at [http://tinyurl.com/39v6f5]. In 1998, Vasil Siomukha won the of Ales Adamovich Literary Prize (awarded by the Belarusian PEN Centre ) for a highly artistic translation of the New Testament and Psalter into the Belarusian language. See [http://www.pen-centre.com/eng/laureate.html]. A copy of the text of this Bible translation was found in a module for Sergej A. Fedosov's '''Slavic Bible for Windows''' [http://www.sbible.boom.ru/ (Russian) website]. ''[[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] was researching how to make contact with the copyright owner, and received a kind offer from someone to act as an intermediary''. ''We have since received informal permission, which now needs to be formalised. An email has been sent to Troy''. ''[[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] has received an authoritative copy of the translation in MS Word format''.

======Hebrew script languages======

* Yiddish New Testament – copyright belongs to The Society For Distributing Hebrew Scriptures (SDHS), Joseph House, 1 Bury Mead Road, Hitchin, Herts SG5 1RT, ENGLAND, UK. Tel: 01462 457486 Fax: 01462 451568 (Registered Charity No. 232692). SDHS literature is officially distributed in the USA by "Light for Israel". http://www.lightforisrael.org/

=====American languages=====

*Navajo, O'odham, Hopi, Apache, Inupiaq (North and North West), Siberian Yupik. – All these languages have at least a New Testament. Navajo has the whole Bible, and the Siberian Yupik NT isn't printed fully yet. ''Contact should be established with the Wycliffe Bible Translators''.

*Zuñi http://benawekokshi.googlepages.com (Mark is ready, Acts and John are still being digitized).

*Baibala Hawaiian Bible http://baibala.org/ – full text online from the 1839 and 1868 editions. Copyright © 2003-2008 by [http://www.pidfoundation.org/ Partners In Development Foundation], which is solely responsible for this product. This website may be utilized for personal use, but may not be used for commercial purposes or copied to any other website. See [http://ulukau.org/disclaimer.php?site=bible] for full terms & conditions. Ulukau uses open-source [http://www.greenstone.org/ Greenstone] software.

=====African Languages=====

*Amharic Bible (Ethiopia) [http://www.bible.org/foreign/amharic/]

*Hausa Bible (Nigeria) [http://visionneuse.free.fr/download/hausa.zip]

*Zarma Bible (Niger) [http://visionneuse.free.fr/download/zarma.zip]

*Fulfuldé Adamawa Bible (Cameroun) [http://visionneuse.free.fr/download/FUB.zip]

*Moore New Testament (Burkina Faso) [http://visionneuse.free.fr/download/ntmoore.zip]

*Kabyle New Testament (Algeria) [http://visionneuse.free.fr/download/ntkabyle.zip]

*Kisongye New Testament (Congo) (1925) [http://www.biblafrique.org/Kisongye.htm]

*Wolof New Testament (Senegal, the Gambia, Mauritania) (1987,2004,2008) [http://www.wolofconnection.org/wolof/Language/olb.htm][http://www.biblewolof.us/]

*Wolofal NT portions (Luke, John, Acts). Wolof language in Arabic script. [http://www.wolofconnection.org/wolof/Language/olb.htm]

*Hanga NT (Ghana). Found electronic text in the Oxford Text Archive. [http://ota.ahds.ac.uk/headers/1183.xml]

*[http://noloshacusub.net/Bible/ Kitaabka Quduuska Ah] is the name of the Somali Bible – ''A Go Bible version already exists.'' The copyright owners (SIM) would be glad for CrossWire to make the KQA text as widely available as possible. Source text is available in USFM format.

====== Berber (Tamazight) Languages ======

* [http://www.tarifit.info/ Tarifit], the Tamazight language from the Rif in Northern Morocco (Latin script).

* [http://www.tamazight.info/ Tamazight], the Tamazight language from Middle Atlas in Morocco (Arabic script).

* [http://www.tachelhit.info/ Tachelhit], the Tamazight language from the South of Morocco (Latin script).

:''Need to establish contact with a view to copyright lobbying''.

=====Asian Languages=====

It would be helpful to the churches in Central Asia, South Asia and South East Asia if Bible modules can be developed for the languages of these regions. CrossWire volunteers who have a particular interest in Asia should be seeking opportunities to obtain permissions and offering our services to the Bible agencies working in the regions.

*Fr. Bernardo Hurault (after 1998?) [http://www.bible.claret.org Christian Community Bible - Tagalog, Chinese, Cebuano, and Ilonggo] translations. Rights request sent 11/04/2008. Response received 11/12/2008 from China which says the [http://www.sobicain.org Sociedad Bíblica Católica Internacional] is the copyright holder. My request is forwarded, but another in spanish is pending.

*World Bible Translation Center (after 1987) [http://www.wbtc.com/site/PageServer?pagename=downloads_main Easy To Read Version] Nepali, Vietnamese, Bengali, Indonesian translations. Rights requested 11/05/2008

======Indian subcontinent======

*Nepali Sangati NT - copyright belongs to the [http://www.gfa.org/bibles Gospel For Asia Bible Society]. Permission for Go Bible granted to [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] in November 2007. ''Should follow this up for CrossWire''.

*Mizo Bible - [http://m.khampat.com/mgb/]. Copyright belongs to the [http://www.bsind.org/ Bible Society of India]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] has contact with the producer of the Mizo Go Bible. ''Should follow this up for CrossWire''.

*Paite Bible - [http://www.zogamonline.com/index.php?option=com_docman&Itemid=156]. Copyright belongs to the [http://www.bsind.org/ Bible Society of India]. The Paite e-Holy Bible is a Windows application that uses the SWORD API. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] has contact with the producer of the Paite Go Bible. ''Should follow this up for CrossWire''.

*Hmar Bible - permissions for SWORD Module and Go Bible have been received in an email sent to [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]]. The Hmar NT was originally sent to him in PageMaker .PMD format. Yesudas Solomon has assisted in making the Go Bible application. ''Need to obtain the digitized text in a convertible format''.

The following four Indian languages Bibles are available as Java ME mobile phone applications made using Go Bible Creator [http://www.christiansmobile.com/]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] has contact with the producer, Yesudas Solomon, who is based in Tamilnadu. I have suggested that he also considers to make SWORD modules.

*Hindi Bible

*Tamil Bible (also Catholic Tamil version)

*Malayalam Bible

*Kannada Bible (KJV and BSI versions)

*Telugu Bible

The text sources for these were used by direct permissions of the translators, even though the Bible Society of India has been unresponsive.

*Marathi New Testament – translated by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratnakar_Hari_Kelkar Ratnakar Hari Kelkar]. The full text is available in PDF format at [http://navakarar.wordpress.com/]. ''Need to establish contact with the copyright owner, Prof. R. R. Kelkar, Pune, India''.

*Konkani Bible – online HTML version available at [http://www.konkanibible.org/]. This Catholic translation includes the Apocrypha. The site is a project of [http://www.KonkaniCatholics.com/ KonkaniCatholics.com].

======Central Asia======
* [http://www.korpu.net/ Azerbaijan Bibles] - Korpu

* [http://www.yeniheyat.com/ Azerbaijan Bibles] - Yeniheyat. Azeri Latin (HTML) & Azeri Cyrillic (PDF).

* Kyrgyz Bible. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] has made a Go Bible version by permission from one of the translators. This is only one of the three modern Kyrgyz translations. Not yet published the Go Bible version - still waiting for completion of the UI translation. ''Should follow up with permission request for CrossWire''.

* [http://www.slovocars.org/english/ Eastern Russian Scriptures Translation] - ''aka'' the CARS Project. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] has contact with the project leader.

* [http://www.holybible.mn/ Mongolian Bible] Cyrillic script. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] has contact with the web-master of a [http://www.ltime.fr/ Mongolian Christian] site in France which links to this.

* [http://www.mongolbible.com/html/IMNT/index.html Mongolian NT] Mongolian script. We may want to do some testing to see whether it is even '''possible''' to display this text in a reasonable fashion before even approaching the copyright holders.

** Firefox won't display it on either Windows or Linux. Neither will webkit (Google Chrome). It appears from some Google searches that the only browser to support this at all is Internet Explorer, which it does indeed do. Theoretically Pango (which is used by Firefox on linux and gtkhtml on all platforms) should be able to render this, but I see little evidence that it actually does. Even if it did, it would require a completely manual control (eg, not an html control) for Xiphos to support this. The lack of support for WebKit also means BibleTime won't support it.

======South East Asia======
* Khmer New Testament (Cambodia). [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] has contact with the project leader. An issue with ligatures surfaced when doing a Go Bible feasibility demo of Matthew's Gospel, but apart from that everything was fine. This issue needs to be resolved by the translators. Khmer codepage coverage is not yet completely finalised in the official Unicode standard. Khmer text source is being edited by translators using MS Excel, rather than something more common (USFM) among Bible translators. Red letters used for WoC. Would need considerable effort to format shift into OSIS.

* Myanmar languages. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] has contact with the [http://www.myanmarbible.com/bible/ Myanmar Bibles] website. The following languages are listed as available translations. OSIS files are already available for all these versions, though I have not yet had time to work on any of them. (Some of these were converted from TeX into OSIS by bibleTec2osis.pl). There is a separate XML file for each book of the Bible. Back in June 2008, there was definite interest for Go Bible, and I imagine they would be also interested for the SWORD project. Tedim would be the easiest to start with, as that uses Latin script with no additional characters. ''Follow up is intended''.
** Myanmar Judson
** MCL
** Chin Study
** Cho
** Falam
** Hakha
** Kachin
** Lahu
** Lhaovo
** Ngawn
** Tedim
** S'gaw Karen
** Sizang
** Zaniat
** Zotung
** WEB

* [http://www.myanmarbible.com/documents/2054.html Myanmar Bibles - Software Project]. "The Myanmar Bible Software Project involved the cooperative effort of volunteers from various nations with a variety of specialized skills e.g. Myanmar languages consultants, Bible translations, software programming, led by Levi Sap Nei Thang. The project is built upon the invaluable foundations of the work of many generations of Bible translators and Bible Societies. We seek to develop software that will eventually serve as a Biblical Resource tool for Myanmar, Bible readers, Christians, church leaders, pastors and church planters. Currently, basic Bible software is available in most major languages of the world. Bible software provides the advantage for people not only to study the word in multiple languages. It also provide to opportunity to incorporate biblical references material such as concordance, dictionary and others to help us deepen our knowledge in the word of God."
:''This request seems well matched to the skills found among CrossWire volunteers.''

* See also [http://thanlwinsoft.co.uk/ ThanLwinSoft (Open Source Software for Myanmar)].

====== Asia Pacific ======
* Bisaya-Inunhan New Testament, translated by Eldon Leano Talamisan (copyright owner), first published in the Philippines in 1999. The Bisaya-Inunhan language is spoken in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romblon Romblon Province], especially in Tablas Island. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] has direct contact with the translator, who has given full permission to the proposal to build a SWORD module and Go Bible application. ''David now has a copy of the most up to date digitized text in MS Word format''. A Go Bible has been made already, albeit with default English user interface.

=====Cult / Unorthodox / Questionable Bibles=====
* [http://www.lolcatbible.com/ The LOLCat Bible] (GFDL 1.2)

* Conservapedia's [http://conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible Conservative Bible] (Unique, but fairly permissive [http://conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:Copyright license].)

====Books====

===== English =====
* [[Creeds of Christendom by Philip Schaff]] ([http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.html 1] and [http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds2.html 2])

* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxe%27s_Book_of_Martyrs Foxe's Book of Martyrs] by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Foxe John Foxe] ([http://books.google.com/books?id=gCUeSAoqOSEC&dq=&pg=PP1&ots=EwFbQI-cOy&sig=Ciue6KwFnRP_7jDxSRSw1nDEpcw&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Faq%3Do%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dcom.ubuntu%253Aen-US%253Aofficial%26q%3DFoxes%2BBook%2Bof%2BMartyrs%26btnG%3DSearch&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title#PPR9,M1 1] and [http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html 2])

===== French =====
* Tertullian on http://www.tertullian.org/french/french.htm

====Commentaries====

* Skeptic's Annotated Bible (file under unorthodox), the similar The Scripture Project, and any of the various refutations/responses, e.g. [http://thedaystar.webs.com/books/index.html].

====Devotionals====
There are several good on-line devotionals listed by the [http://www.apibs.org/devotions/devotions.htm Asia-Pacific Institute Of Biblical Studies]. Among them are the following.

* ''The Believer's Daily Remembrancer'' aka ''The Pastor's Morning Visit'' (1846), by James Smith (1802-1862). Digitization has already begun. [http://www.apibs.org/devotions/remembrancer/smith.htm].

* ''Faith's Check Book'', by C. H. Spurgeon. [http://www.apibs.org/devotions/fcb/fcb.htm]. Fully digitized. Single download available. [http://www.apibs.org/devotions/fcb/fcb.zip]

====Lexicons====
*Unabridged Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon -- worth researching; The text exists in electronic format, at least licensed. It's important that this not be the "Abridged BDBG" which is Larry Pierce's altered module.

*What Does the Bible Say About and Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary, lightweight but potentially interesting and useful resources and (based on testing from text portions obtained from ebible.com) easy to convert to SWORD format. Contact attempted, see NKJV above. There are other resources possible here as well, on a more restricted basis at ebible.com, in the "New Illustrated" series (commentary, "topics"), any of which should be convertible.

* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Henry_Thayer Thayer's] Greek Lexicon (no source known)

== Pictures ==

:''For further leads, please visit [http://www.biblical-art.com/ Biblical Art on the WWW]''.

=== Bible illustrations ===

* ''The Bible and Its Story Taught by One Thousand Picture Lessons'', edited by Charles F. Horne and Julius A. Bewer. 1908. I have found many of these images available online at [http://www.wcg.org/images/b1/].

=== Maps ===

== External links ==
:''Please add links here that may be fruitful in suggesting further leads''.

=== Wikipedia ===
:''CrossWire volunteers who are also Wikipedians are encouraged to update such articles based on their specialist knowledge''.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bible_translators

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations_by_language

Tutorial:Compiling & Installing SWORD

2009-10-27T18:27:45Z

Mwtalbert: /* Red Hat Enterprise Linux or CentOS */ Add information on CentOS packages for SWORD

==Aims==

This page is intended to help anyone who needs to get started obtaining and compiling the very latest SWORD source code, and then installing and testing it on their machine, on a Linux (or possibly other Unix-like) operating system.

For Windows users, refer to [[Tutorial:Compiling & Installing SWORD on Windows]].

''NOTE: This process includes making Internet connections to crosswire.org, to download SWORD source code and a sample SWORD module.''

==Introduction==

There are four main steps involved:

* Installing all the necessary software packages
* Downloading the latest development SWORD source code
* Compiling and installing SWORD
* Testing that the new SWORD installation is basically working

All of these can be scripted for a specific Linux distribution, and some sample scripts are provided below. An explanation of each step is also provided, in case you want to understand what the script does (!), or there is no script for your particular Linux distribution.

==Scripts for some Linux distributions==

The bash scripts below use [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudo sudo] to become root when necessary, see below for more details on that.

===Debian or Ubuntu===

'''Note that official SWORD packages exist, please only use this script if you truly need to compile from source, and do NOT have the packaged version of SWORD installed.'''

<pre>
#!/bin/bash
PKGS="subversion build-essential autotools-dev pkg-config libz-dev libclucene-dev libicu-dev libcurl4-gnutls-dev"
sudo apt-get install $PKGS -y
svn co http://crosswire.org/svn/sword/trunk sword
cd sword
./autogen.sh && ./usrinst.sh --enable-shared && make && sudo make install && sudo make install_config
</pre>

===Fedora 10 or Fedora 11===

'''Note that official SWORD packages exist, please only use this script if you truly need to compile from source, and do NOT have the packaged version of SWORD installed.'''

<pre>
#!/bin/bash
PKGS="subversion gcc-c++ make libtool icu zlib-devel clucene-core-devel libicu-devel libcurl-devel"
sudo yum install $PKGS -y
svn co http://crosswire.org/svn/sword/trunk sword
cd sword
./autogen.sh && ./usrinst.sh --enable-shared && make && sudo make install && sudo make install_config
</pre>

===Mandriva===
<pre>
#!/bin/bash
PKGS="colorsvn gcc-c++ make libtool icu zlib1-devel libclucene-devel libicu-devel libcurl-devel automake"
sudo urpmi $PKGS
svn co http://crosswire.org/svn/sword/trunk sword
cd sword
./autogen.sh && ./usrinst.sh --enable-shared && make && sudo make install && sudo make install_config
</pre>

===Red Hat Enterprise Linux or CentOS===

'''Official Packages now exist. Please use these if possible.''' They will be available soon in the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL package repository. Until then, they will be available here:
http://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/packages/sword/1.6.0/1.el5/
http://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/packages/clucene/0.9.21b/1.el5/

Note this script is a little more complex than most, because RHEL 5.x and CentOS 5.x lack the '''cluccene-core-devel''' library package. This means the script must manually download a source RPM package, rebuild it and install it, before it can work with the SWORD source code. And before it can do that, it has to make sure there is an appropriate setup for building RPMs from source in place.

<pre>
#!/bin/bash
PKGS="subversion gcc-c++ make libtool icu zlib-devel libicu-devel libcurl-devel findutils rpm-build"
sudo yum install $PKGS -y
if [ ! -f ~/.rpmmacros ]; then
cat >>~/.rpmmacros <<EOF
%_topdir ~/rpm
%_tmppath %{_topdir}/tmp
EOF
mkdir -p ~/rpm/{BUILD,SOURCES,SPECS,SRPMS,tmp} ~/rpm/RPMS/{athlon,i386,i486,i586,i686,noarch}
fi
rpmbuild --rebuild http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/releases/10/Fedora/source/SRPMS/clucene-0.9.21-1.fc10.src.rpm
sudo rpm -Uvh `find ~/rpm/RPMS/ -type f -name "*clucene*rpm" ! -name "*-debuginfo*"`
svn co http://crosswire.org/svn/sword/trunk sword
cd sword
./autogen.sh && ./usrinst.sh --enable-shared && make && sudo make install && sudo make install_config
</pre>

==Test script==

The is a very basic test; in particular it does not check indexed search functions at all.

<pre>
#!/bin/bash
export SWORD_PATH=~/.sword
mkdir -p $SWORD_PATH/mods.d
echo yes |installmgr -init
echo yes |installmgr -sc
echo yes |installmgr -r CrossWire
echo yes |installmgr -ri CrossWire KJV
unset SWORD_PATH
installmgr -l
diatheke -b KJV -k Jn 3:16
</pre>
This test script should output (after a lot of debugging information):
<pre>
John 3:16:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(KJV)
</pre>

==Becoming root (using sudo)==

In order to install software (including installing SWORD itself), you will need to be able to temporarily "become" root.

Most Linux (and several *BSD) distributions include a tool called sudo than can do this very conveniently, once set up, without having to repeatedly enter a root password. On some Linux distributions (including Ubuntu) this is already set up for you during the installation process. On others, you will need to

* Become root (i.e. obtain a root command shell) in some other way (log in as root, or use su, and type in the root password when prompted for it).
* Use the command <pre>visudo</pre> to edit the sudo configuration file.
* Add a line <pre>yourusername ALL=(ALL) ALL</pre> to the file, save the change and and exit your text editor.

* After that, you should be able to type <pre>sudo id</pre> to run the (harmless) command id as root. sudo will prompt you for your own password, but if it is used more than once within a short period, will "remember" that you have already provided it and not ask for it again. This is very convenient.

==Installing necessary software packages==

Starting from a fairly minimal Linux installation, a C++ compiler and several other libraries and tools must be added to the system before compiling SWORD. These come in packages. The command to install packages varies between different Linux distributions. A few examples follow:

;Fedora, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, CentOS:
sudo yum install <list of packages>
;Debian, Ubuntu, Mint:
sudo apt-get install <list of packages>
;Mandriva:
sudo urpmi <list of packages>

These packaging tools will automatically install additional dependent packages, so the ones you request will work once installed.

Package names vary too, but generally the following packages must be installed:

* subversion (a tool used to obtain the latest SWORD source code, see below)
* the GNU C++ compiler, often in a package named g++ or gcc-c++
* make
* libtool
* icu
* zlib-devel (sometimes named zlib1-devel or zlib1g-dev)
* clucene-core-devel (sometimes named libclucene-dev)
* libicu-devel (sometimes named libicu-dev)
* libcurl-devel (named libcurl4-gnutls-dev on Debian-derived systems)

These will generally automatically "pull in" other necessary packages such as binutils, automake and autoconf as dependencies.

==Downloading the SWORD source code==

The single command <pre>svn http://crosswire.org/sword/svn/trunk sword</pre> will download the current development code of SWORD, into a directory called sword. Once the command finishes, you should be able to do <pre>cd sword</pre> and look at all the source code you just downloaded.

==Compiling and installing SWORD==

The INSTALL file contains all the details, but if all is well, after cd sword (i.e., from inside the SWORD source code directory) the command line <pre>./autogen.sh && ./usrinst.sh --enable-shared && make</pre> to configure and compile SWORD.

If this fails, make sure all the necessary packages are installed on your system, and after that, please ask for help in the [http://crosswire.org/forums/ Crosswire forums] or on the sword-devel mailing list.

To install SWORD, after successfully compiling SWORD, you can do <pre>sudo make install && sudo make install_config</pre> to install SWORD and a default configuration file on your machine.

==Testing a new SWORD installation==

As a very basic test, you can download and install the KJV SWORD "module" and then check that the command line bible reader diatheke can read a verse from it. The commands to do this (using the usual bash shell) are:

<pre>
export SWORD_PATH=~/.sword
mkdir -p $SWORD_PATH/mods.d

echo yes |installmgr -init
echo yes |installmgr -sc
echo yes |installmgr -r CrossWire
echo yes |installmgr -ri CrossWire KJV
installmgr -l
diatheke -b KJV -k Jn 3:16
</pre>

If that displays a bunch of text, and then something very similar to:
<pre>
John 3:16:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(KJV)
</pre>

then the SWORD installation is basically working.

Official and Affiliated Module Repositories

2009-07-03T06:59:44Z

Mwtalbert: Undo revision 6455 by RacnoLaviv (Talk)

== CrossWire Bible Society ==
Official module repository from CrossWire Bible Society
Site Name: CrossWire Bible Society
Site Machine Name: ftp.crosswire.org
Repository Directory: /pub/sword/raw/
For a nice web interface to obtain the Modules as Packages
* http://www.crosswire.org/sword/modules

== CrossWire Bible Society's repository for beta testers ==
Site Name: CrossWire beta
Site Machine Name: www.crosswire.org
Repository Directory: /pub/sword/betaraw
For a nice web interface to obtain the Modules as Packages
* http://www.crosswire.org/sword/modules/betaindex.jsp
Please test these modules and report your findings on [[Modules in the beta repository]]

== NET Bible ==
Home of the New English Translation
Site Name: NET
Site Machine Name: ftp.bible.org
Repository Directory: /sword

== Xiphos ==
A number of random creations, including a fair number of map and image modules:
Tischendorf8 Greek NT, Hodge's Systematic Theology, and others.
Site Name: Xiphos
Site Machine Name: ftp.xiphos.org
Repository Directory: .

== Other Module Sources (Non-Repositories) ==

=== Institute for Scripture Research ===
The [http://www.messianic.co.za ISR] has a self-extracting ZIP of ''The Scriptures'' that can be installed locally. The module is encoded such that it can be used in The SWORD Project for Windows only (and no other front-end, including other front-ends running on Windows). Since it is a copyrighted work being offered for free, I'm not sure if improvements would be updated on their site.

=== Bible Vietnam ===
[http://www.biblevietnam.org The UBS Vietnam page] has several Vietnamese-language modules, including the UBS version of the Viet module, which incorporates minor corrections to the 1926 text made in 1998 by the UBS along with headings and cross-references.

=== Modules in Brazilian Portuguese ===
[http://siriarah.wordpress.com/tag/sword/ ACF - Almeida Corrigida Fiel] and [http://siriarah.wordpress.com/tag/sword/ NTLH - Nova Tradução na Linguagem de Hoje] are available, hopefully other modules may follow. The modules focus on Linux, but they are supposed to work on Windows, Mac and Maemo platforms either. For ACF, copyright status is ok under Brazilian laws. For NTLH, copyright status not verified yet.

=== Polish Projekt Sword ===
[http://sword.chrzescijanie.pl/ Polish Projekt SWORD]. Copyright status uncertain for some of the available Polish modules.

=== Institute for Bible Translation ===
The [http://www.ibt.org.ru/english/bible/info_bible_en.htm Institute for Bible Translation] provides a number of translations in various Turkic languages of Central Asia. Currently these include Karakalpak, Turkmen (both Latin & Cyrillic), Uzbek (both Latin & Cyrillic), and Kyrgyz (both Arabic & Cyrillic). Alongside these translations are modules for English, Russian, Korean and the original Bible languages (Hebrew and Greek). Further modules are in preparation.

=== Paite e-Holy Bible ===
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paite Paite] is spoken in parts of North East India, Burma & Bangladesh. The Paite e-Holy Bible version 2 (2008-12-17) is available from [http://www.zogamonline.com/index.php?option=com_docman&Itemid=156 Paite E-Holy Bible]. It is possible to display the Paite module in other SWORD front end applications for Windows by copying the installed files to the SWORD path.

=== German Volxbibel ===
[http://www.volxbibel.com/ Volxbibel] – A new German Bible translation in the language of the young generation. The translation is under the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/de/deed.en_GB Creative Commons] license, so non-commercial use and distribution is allowed. A SWORD module called VLX3 has been created by [http://www.heidoc.net/ Jan Krohn], who has also built Go Bible applications for Java mobile phones. ''Contact Jan Krohn for further details''.

Talk:Official and Affiliated Module Repositories

2009-06-22T21:57:59Z

Mwtalbert: /* How to set BibleDesktop module installer for the Xiphos modules repository? */ answer

== CrossWire's policy regarding Biblical texts ==

Somewhere in the wiki there should be a clear statement about CrossWire's policy regarding Biblical texts. i.e. That CrossWire is not an authority for generating such texts. When textual errors are reported, CrossWire does not seek to correct them, but to obtain a better text from another source. Is there already an agreed form of words that could be pasted into the appropriate wiki page? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 08:01, 24 September 2008 (MDT)

== Brazilian copyright leglislation ==

Copyright duration in Brazil is Life + 70 years, as tabulated in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries%27_copyright_length]. This is similar to many other countries. It is therefore inadequate to claim for the ACF text, "Copyright status ok under Brazilian legislation", without citing proper evidence that permissions have been obtained from the copyright owners. There have been lengthy discussions in the CrossWire mailing lists[http://www.crosswire.org/wiki/EnduserFAQ#What_happened_to_the_Portuguese_module.3F] about the difficulties of obtaining a legal right to use any Portuguese translation. This new addition to the main page here is dubious to say the least. The linked wordpress pages of siriarah do not provide enough evidence for the provenance of the digitized text used for the several ACF downloads. For all we know they could have all been derived from a dubious text posted on another file-sharing service. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:47, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
:I have therefore changed the last sentence to ''Copyright status not verified''. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:49, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

== How to set BibleDesktop module installer for the Xiphos modules repository? ==

The edit site dialog in BD is different than in SPW. How does one set BD to access Xiphos? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 17:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, BD is unable to access the Xiphos repo right now, as we do not have http access (nor do we zip up the modules in the way BD requires). I have thought about setting it up, but no one has requested it yet. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 21:57, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Talk:OSIS Commentaries

2009-04-23T07:04:25Z

Mwtalbert: /* annotateRef */ Realized that this is a known bug.

== External References ==

Is it still the case that work ID's are not supported? Fairly recent discussions on sword-devel seem to indicate that they are. If osisRef are not to be used for external works, is there any method to do so? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:46, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

== annotateRef ==

I assumed that using a range, eg annotateRef="Gen.47.28-Gen.47.31" would link the intervening verses, so that the same content would show for any of the verses. Is this how it is supposed to work? If so, it appears to be broken (using osis2mod 2322) --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 06:11, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I see now that this is a known bug. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 07:04, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Talk:OSIS Commentaries

2009-04-23T06:11:22Z

Mwtalbert: annotateRef and linked verses

Talk:OSIS Commentaries

2009-04-23T03:46:17Z

Mwtalbert: External References

Talk:OSIS Tutorial

2009-04-23T03:35:38Z

Mwtalbert: Identifier Type confusion

== Long s ==

I would like to take issue with the representation of the "long s" of the original text with the letter 'f'.

If you look carefully at the graphical representation you link to you will notice that while the letter f has a cross-stroke (extending both sides of the vertical), the long s does NOT have a cross stroke, but merely a stub extending to the left of the vertical.

In fonts corresponding to this older typography, a "long s" was used at the beginning and in the middle of words, while a "round s" (which looks like our s) was used at the end.

It is thus plain wrong (in that it alters the meaning of the content, "fifh" not being the same word as "fish" at all, nor, obviously, to move to the New Testament, is Jefus the same as Jesus) to write f where the original has a long s -- the proper representation of long s in a font which does not have that glyph is the ordinary, "round" s.

:Please sign edits to discussion pages by adding four tilde. This get converted automatically to your username with a timestamp. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Long s is equivalent to &#383; and I have replaced 'f' with it in the example text, where appropriate. --[[User:Wlerin|Wlerin]] 00:53, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

== Identifier Type ==

In the example given here, the identifier type is given as "KJV.TutorEncoding", while in Calvin's Commentaries the identifier is "Bible.CalvinCommentaries". Why is KJV used in one place, and Bible in the other? What is appropriate to use for a commentary? (as a side note, I was under the impression that sample commentaries were available. If so, could they be linked from this page or the OSIS commentary page?) --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:35, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-09T00:10:17Z

Mwtalbert: /* Poetry Indentation levels */

== Project Links ==
For the front end links, we need to choose either links to homepages or links to wiki pages, not both. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

== Localization ==
I would recommend not listing that front ends can be localized. I don't think that actually matters to any users. What is important, and hence what we should list, is the existing list of UI localizations for each front end. (Ability to display RtoL text is a separate issue, independent of UI localization, so I think that's fine to keep.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

:The original intention of each entry in the table was/is that it gets removed if a feature is present in all frontends. This one means little to end users , but it means something to translators and developers. If we can find out whether SwordBible can get translated easily then all are localisable and the feature should be listed above the table.

Does localization extend to using different numerals for chapter & verse navigation & verse markers ? Or do some Frontends retain digits 0...9 even when everything else is localized? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think BD is the only one that does bi-directional number shaping. That is the user can type in localized digits and BD will shape it into 0-9 (if not already as such). And when displaying it transforms from 0-9 into the user's localized representation, if different. We only do this for user input and program generated numbers. We don't do it for numbers that are explicitly in the text. IMHO, text should be displayed as is. (For ICU's Javadoc on it see: http://icu-project.org/apiref/icu4j/com/ibm/icu/text/ArabicShaping.html).--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

::Here is [http://www.code2000.net/numbersutf.htm A Table of Numbers] in various scripts from Arabic to Tibetan (and more). [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

== Archiving ==
"Archiving" means what? Removal to another location? Compression? Consider whether this is a feature that is actually important to users in their process of making a decision between front ends--not just an attempt at one-upping. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 01:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Osk - if you mistook this table as one-upmanship then you are badly mistaken. I tried to unravel the narrative everyone seems to give about their frontend. Archiving is GS tem for keeping modules out of sight but available. It does what it says on the tin. BT has (I think) a different solution to the same concern. The tables are quite obviously increasingly not anymore for first time users, but that is quite irrelevant. We can always finally extract the core points for a message to users, but there are other uses for these tables possible too - for developers, for translators - where to concentrate effort etc [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Xiphos's concept of archiving is different than what is explained here. It does not actually 'hide' the module; it will still be available after archiving. Archiving zips up the module (preserving correct paths) so that it can be easily transferred to another machine. This is handy for user-created modules if you want to share them with someone else, and will probably be an integral part of future plans to allow uploading modules. Also, you can archive a module, then remove it (which would also affect other apps). Xiphos provides no way for 'hiding' without complete removal (although it probably should). However, the archiving feature is unique and provides benefit to end users. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Complex Scripts ==
What does "Complex Scripts" mean in this context? When people talk about complex scripts, they're not generally talking about basic things like Arabic shaping. They generally mean things like contextual shaping of Indic or rising baseline Arabic calligraphy. And this feature could have differing values for a single front end, depending on the platform. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think originally Peter meant support for Myanmar which BibleCS lacks. I take issue with the notation (with Uniscribe) because I *have* Uniscribe, and have told BibleCS to use a font that I *know* has the correct symbols, yet BibleCS can still not display the text. --[[User:mwtalbert|mwtalbert]]
::: This is a bad misunderstanding or misquote. I never singled out BibleCS in this matter. All frontends failed BurJudson, some worse some less bad. The level of support can clearly not always get answered with simply yes/no. But as such it is an important matter - as some frontends are constitutionally incapable of rendereing such scripts and others require additional work (which is fine if it works) [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 23:04, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::So, should we change the category "Complex Scripts" to "BurJudson works"? I could release a module (assuming I could get permission, that is) that would universally fail because none of the existing front ends can support its writing system. Would we then mark all front ends as not supporting complex scripts?
::The notation about Uniscribe is more descriptive than a "yes" or "no", since the best possible result any front end can report is support of ''some'' complex scripts. Unless I'm simply mistaken (which is certainly possible) and BibleCS's RTF control doesn't actually use Uniscribe, the failure to correctly render BurJudson is simply indicative of Uniscribe not completely supporting that script yet. (I will investigate whether I'm wrong about Uniscribe.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 20:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

If you could explain how you managed to get BibleCS to do anything more than display little boxes for the text in BurJudson, I'd be interested in knowing. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 04:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: I just updated BurJudson to expect [http://scripts.sil.org/Padauk Padauk] by default so following an update or manual font change it should work for you, but prior to that it had required the [http://www.thanlwinsoft.org/ThanLwinSoft/Downloads/Fonts/PadaukOT-2.1.exe PadaukOT font]. The latter has since been discontinued since SIL added OT tables to their font. If you have another Unicode font with Myanmar support, you will have to set it either in the .conf directly or via the module preferences panel. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I expected that when I changed all the Bible texts to use Padauk it would attempt to use that for BurJudson. Apparently it doesn't work that way. I changed the .conf to use Paduak instead of PadaukOT and it works now (at least to the point of showing the characters, I didn't check specific rendering issues).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

It should probably be mentioned, since BurJudson is being taken as indicative of complex script rendering capability, that Myanmar text is probably the least likely to exhibit correct rendering of any script. Myanmar was first added to Unicode at version 4.0 in 2003. Apparently no one liked the encoding model, so it was radically changed in Unicode 5.1 (released last April). As a result documents may not be updated to Unicode 5.1 encoding (I doubt BurJudson has been)--although many fonts have already been updated to Unicode 5.1's Myanmar encoding model (Padauk and PadaukOT both are). Furthermore, text layout engines may or may not be updated. (I would guess that Graphite has been updated, but the latest Uniscribe has not.) So it would be reasonable to expect a bit of chaos within the world of Myanmar text for the next couple years. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: Fair point. Do we have any other module which tests well the same concepts? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:: I'm (slowly) working on a script demo module, which will include an entry for each script identified in [http://unicode.org/iso15924/iso15924-codes.html ISO 15924]. I had intended it for testing transliteration facilities, but we can also use it to test rendering in general. More immediately, the UDHR module contains texts in many languages, using many scripts, a good portion of them complex (though about 80% of the entries are probably either Latin or Cyrillic). Notably, UDHR contains the same Myanmar text encoded using the Unicode 4.0 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 5)) and the Unicode 5.1 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 6)). --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 10:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I also think the column should go into module support next to the RtoL support - I will do this later today. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Image GenBook support ==
Users do not know what GenBook means. Are images really unsupported in any kind of module type? --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:There is a bug in Bible Desktop, that has been fixed in SVN, that did not properly determine the proper display a Dictionary (LD) with images that is also marked Category=Maps. BD/JSword support all image types that Java can render. I don't know what that is, but at least it includes all the types that we would use in a module.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

== Image Formats / other Image Module support ==
These are not things that an end-user cares about. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
: I agree. I think this can be generalized to a bigger issue. Karl has a wonderful repository of non-official, very useful modules. These may show problems in end-user applications. For example, if his map modules have png images, then there is some front-end that does not support it. The user cares about available modules working or not working.
: I already mentioned the Bible Desktop bug regarding LD image modules marked as Maps. While I routinely test JSword/BD against all CrossWire modules, I don't against Karl's repository. Given it's visibility and value, I think I should.
: The bigger question is how do we note short-comings/bugs in a particular application? I don't think this is the appropriate venue. (Though I don't mind JSword being called out as lagging SWORD.)--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I have to run to church right now, but as soon as I get a chance, I'm going to nuke the whole Images category down to a single, uninformative "Supports Images" column, universally marked with "yes". --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

What was this, Osk? I have restored the section and would appreciate if it stays up. This section has meaning and is reflected in existing modules [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

To be clear this is not about bugs but about frontend limitations - so once it is clear that all frontends can actually deal with all module types then the point simply gets deleted and amalgamated in the "all frontends do xyz" list. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:All front ends support basically the same set of features, with respect to images, in either their current release or in SVN. And these are not end-user concerns, they are developer concerns. Users don't know which format module images use or which kind of module they will appear in, they simply expect content they download to work. So this whole section is completely unnecessary to users. Front end developers don't need it either, since all limitations have already been worked around (namely, the SVN versions of all front ends should now support JPEG & PNG images in all module types). (I don't consider other formats necessary, so we won't ever release content that uses other image formats.) The particulars of which versions of various front ends support which formats & which module types may be useful to content developers, but I can advise them of that during the submission process, and this need not be included as part of a feature matrix aimed at end users. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Do they? If all frontends (at current svn level) can have all module types laced with images this column will obviously go the same way as any other column which is all round "yes". Wrt image formats - svg is the one notable format which brings enormous benefits (due to its translatability) , so svg support is something which is valuable. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

There are already modules that have images in gif format, so I think it should be listed. Not sure why it should *never* be supported. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

This is slightly off-topic, and perhaps it should be reported elsewhere, but I've just confirmed that BibleCS has '''NO''' image support if the images aren't in modules under the BibleCS installation directory. I have SWORD_PATH set to M:/Sword (shared network drive), and none of my image modules were working. I finally added the mods.d folder back (BibleCS then ignores SWORD_PATH), installed an image module with the InstallManager, which then worked (after a restart, of course). This is a fairly serious bug (at least it would be for me, as installing modules under the BibleCS installation directory is not an option). --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 10:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

== Study Notes ==
What are study notes in the tagging section? [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 09:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:Study notes are simply a text editor type note taking facility which then can get exported - e.g. for sermon preparation. This could have gone just as well to '''other''', or where ever, but in the end it is often the final result of a search and bookmarking exercise that you go and write something up which tyou then print and take somewhere else. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 22:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::Personal study notes in a multi-user OS may be ''global'' (all users see them) or ''individual'' (current user sees only his/her own). Could we include a table row that shows which applies? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== BibleCS Portability ==
BibleCS is not properly portable. For once I'm not even applying the stringent PortableApps.com "stealth" requirements. It depends on some libraries (which they are escapes me) and controls which may not be installed on the local user's machine. Also, it leaves stuff all over the place in the registry, and registers itself and so on in a way which leaves orphaned entries in the registry in a most horrible way. What I really complain about though is the fact that on some computers, it won't even just be "Just Works™". For reference on some issues, see [http://portableapps.com/node/10582 this thread] on PortableApps.com. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 10:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:I have just read the thread and I don't think it applies. BibleCS is properly portable wrt to the registry, but it takes some work. First, one has to install it to the default location, which uses the registry. Then one copies c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to a thumb drive. Then it is un-installed from the local machine. This is a one time operation. Second, the user has to use the built-in module installer and not the windows modules downloaded from CrossWire in Windows format. The latter uses the registry. Is it this specific path that prevents the "Just Works". It would be simple enough to zip the contents of that directory and make it available as a portable download. Would that qualify as "Just Works"?
:As to the library problem, if you can recall them that would be great. This it the first I have heard of this.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::It registers all sorts of messy things... in my books, that ruins it, but it still Just Works™. See my comment a bit lower down as to the rest. Absolute paths can be a big problem though. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:You can't recall which libraries it requires because it doesn't. Everything needed by BibleCS is contained within its directory. It writes a few registry entries, but does not need them for its own functioning (only for private protocol calls). And those registry entries really could be deleted upon exit, if desired. So if you move BibleCS around to computers other than that to which it was installed, it will work perfectly fine. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::Got a feeling it was the rich text component or something. The protocol and executable registration is a nuisance as well, and I'd need to test whether it was really dependant on these - if so, it's unlikely to run as a limited user on a new machine. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

FWIW I consider this discussion a bit beside the point. If something runs off a USB drive it is portable in all practical sense. If it leaves a little bit of bit-garbage behind then it is still ''portable'', but not ''securely portable'' in the sense that no one will ever know you used it there - but that is a second matter. If the reason that you do not want to leave anything behind is indeed your physical or job security then even portable apps has a massive problem - and that is teh fact that USB drives get logged by Windows - at least if you do a half decent set-up. The only way to securely (in that particular sense) deploy an application is by running it off a bootable CD. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 08:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to get involved in this discussion, as it doesn't matter to me at all. However, I just uninstalled BibleCS from my Windows 7 computer, and it left icudt38.dll, InstallManager.exe, and userprefs.conf in the installation directory. Perhaps something is wrong in the uninstaller? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:small addition. I could not find any registry keys left behind. Also, I performed the uninstall on XP, and it left the same files behind, although the installer briefly flashed that it was uninstalling InstallManager.exe. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 05:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

::My opinion as the original author of the installer: The uninstaller leaving modules and application generated content is not a bug. But leaving icudt38.dll and InstallManager.exe is. Conceptually the installer installs two parts: BibleCS specific parts (the executables and their dlls) and shareable parts (i.e. locales.d, the modules and other things that all SWORD apps can use). I think it should have an option regarding the shareable parts. It probably should put these elsewhere and not in "The SWORD Project" directory.

:::My personal opinion is that leaving anything at all under Program Files is a bug. As a user, I would expect to be able to delete that and not delete my personal preferences as I would expect them to be stored with all my other application preferences. That's beside the point here. If it helps any, I did choose to leave the shared parts during both uninstalls. Perhaps InstallManager.exe and icudt38.dll got put in the wrong place in the uninstall script?--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll try again. [[User:Osk|Osk]] reverted my correction last time I did it. BibleCS, when run from a USB disk, '''will''' leave stuff behind; for starters (I haven't done a full scan, but these are the ones I remember and found):

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\sword.exe (put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\SharedDLLs\[install path]\sword.exe (not sure, probably put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\sword (sword:// protocol, put in by BibleCS, not sure if BibleCS depends on it)

If any of these are created by BibleCS if they are not there, which they are, then it '''does''' leave traces on the host machine.

Perhaps we could also say "don't use the Install Manager", as I understand it just plain doesn't work (it was the main reason Kevin Porter abandoned The SWORD Project for Windows Portable). At least, though, can we remove the word "no" in "leaves no traces on host machine" once more? [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

: No, actually, no I didn't. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 15:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:: It was me who changed this. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:Chris, did you find these keys on a computer that did not have them after running sword.exe or InstallManager.exe from the USB drive? I find that hard to believe. My experience, if you use the installer to install it to a USB device, it will leave traces on the computer on which you did the install. But if you install it temporarily to a computer and copy c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to the USB drive and then use that USB drive on a different computer, it should not change the registry of that machine. AFAIR, it is the installer that puts these keys into the registry, not the program. AFAIR, the InstallManager.exe does not change the registry, either. This program will use the mods.d and modules folder in the same directory to write it's modules.

:: In the thread last year "[GnomeSword-developers] win32 installer for testing", Chris Little said: "I'm not sure whether you're setting the private protocol handler in the installer or in the GS app, but you should be aware that BibleCS sets the handler to call itself every time it is launched. (It also sets the private protocol handler used by Logos iff it is not already set.)". So just based on that I would say it does set registry entries on startup, not on install. Not sure about installmanager, though [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 02:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll put together a PortableApps version of BibleCS this weekend so that we can put the whole issue to rest. No need to continue debating, but continue if it makes you happy. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Windowing and Text Display ==

I have taken out the Complex Scripts bit and shoved into Module support - it belongs more into that category. The narrative for windows display I think is best expressed in an adequate screenshot. The relevant principles which can be answerd with yes/no are - so far, I think, please add
# Un/linkable texts - e.g Commentary and Bible or several Bibles (both needs to be present - linking and unlinking)
# Parallel display of whole passages in a side by side fashion,
# the ability to hide unneeded Windows/screen areas.
# The ability to have several texts of a kind open at different books/chapters and being able to switch forward and backward
# Unconnected passages on one tab/window

A fair number of BD's list of Others is conceptually also an expression of verse lists

[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

What exactly is meant by poetry display here? Xiphos does display poetry with the correct line breaks and indentation (as in the module, but not exactly as the printed ESV as BPB does)--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Installer ==
Refdoc, I see that you have that BibleCS's installer sorts modules by language. I don't see that. I see it by type only.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
:Have I? mistake. This layout of the table is much better, but i still get confused occasionally. Please do check. Thanks [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] Sorted. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

==Soon?==

I really do not like "soon" as an entry. What is the cut off point for soon? I'd rather that things are yes/no/partial/not applicable and once something is implemented it will change to yes. Otherwise we will have a totally meaningless table. My honest/humble opinion. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 13:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I had a second look at what you marked as soon and I think this is actually fair enough - but I remarked it as partial. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 14:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I think soon or planned are fine categories, but it needs to have specific meaning. To me "soon" means that the capability is in beta and is generally available for testing. Perhaps, "beta" would be better than "soon" and it would have a link to the beta. To me "planned" means that the feature has been checked into source code control and will be part of the next release. Right now we have "yes" with footnotes stating this or that will be available with 1.5.12. Perhaps, "ready" would be better than "planned".--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Indexed Search ==

We have listed the technology, but what are the practical differences? Do all applications index on the same fields? Presumably yes, in which case the technology should be come an internal like other toolkits used. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 16:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The practical outworkings of above technological differences could/should form simply new rows - like crossboundary searches etc.[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

I agree with the new rows. Not sure what they should be.

Compared to SWORD (with key, body and strong), JSword indexes these and additional fields, allowing:
* note:(Abraham) - Find verses with notes about Abraham
* xref:(John 3:16) - Find verses with cross-references to John 3:16. (JSword will normalize the reference to an OSIS ID.)
* heading:(Moses) - Find verses with headings containing Moses.
JSword indexes also allow stemmed searches. It also has different analyzers for different languages. Our Thai analyzer, is necessary to get the word breaks correctly.

The other thing that a search engine bring is a search syntax. Each is different. CLucene and Lucene have the same syntax. I presume BPBible and MacSword have a different one.

Even with Lucene and CLucene, there are differences. JSword can use a SWORD index, but SWORD can't use a JSword index. The reason is that JSword is using Lucene 2.x and Clucene is compatible with 1.4.x. These have different storage formats. CLucene will never catch up with Lucene. We moved away from 1.4.x for outrageous performance gains.

The other thing that JSword has (and I think some others do) is passage restricted searching. This is layered on top of the search engine. If there is a different engine being used by an app, this feature might not be there.

That an app uses Lucene/CLucene/Apple Search/Custom is not a user concern, but it's impact is. One impact of MacSword using Apple's search is that it is available to Spotlight, the global search of the Mac. This is awesome!
--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 18:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Which make sme think whether at least Linux applications could not do the same - beagle etc. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 18:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

In addition to this, BibleTime also indexes several fields that Xiphos and SPW do not. I believe they include the fields that JSword indexes. This is an important distinction, and one where the official Sword indexing is lagging behind these others (at least as regards fields indexed, but it's a definite negative imo) As far as I know, only Xiphos and SPW are using the official Sword indexing --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==

The second table under this heading should be transposed, and should use abbreviations for the frontend applications. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:No. It is the source table for the first table it is the last table not completely imported into the vertical format. Once completely imported it will get deleted. Reason for the delay being thet I a) had no time for it yet and b) there are some things which do not add up in my testing [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 19:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

== Do any frontends or modules also install fonts? ==

Another question to ask of each application is, "Do any frontends or modules also install fonts?". [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::none do as far as I am aware [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:::The Xiphos Windows installer does install fonts --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if this is what was meant. More rather would/could the programme chase up needed fonts and download them. Or did I misunderstand you David? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

The program FlashCards (Greek/Hebrew learning tool) will load a font without installing them to the local OS. Not installing them locally is important for PortableApps' "leave no trace." I've thought of adding this capability to JSword and distribute some SIL fonts with it. It would be cool to be able to specify by URL some fonts to download. My thought it that we would host a open source fonts on the CrossWire server and serve them as we do modules and a new conf's entry FontSource would provide that URL.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Display of information about the source text? ==

Frontends differ in the amount of information they display about the source text for each module, and on how they manage this. This too needs a comparison chart. It's especially important for textual provenance and copyright status, etc. It is a chore to always have to refer to the CrossWire downloads page. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
:Among the frontends with which I am familiar, BD does this very nicely. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Syncrhonized scrolling? ==

Do all frontends that support parallel texts also provide an optional setting for synchronized vertical scrolling? If not, please compare. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::do any? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
::BD, MS, SPW, (others?) show their parallel Bibles in the same pane with a single scroll bar. BD also allows for commentaries to be shown in parallel view. So all of these have synchronized vertical scrolling. In BD (and perhaps the others) you can choose to show Bibles in different views (tabs or windows) and each has their own scroll bar. From what I have heard, but not seen, I believe Xiphos is unique in that you can tie any two verse number based views together (i.e. Bibles and/or Commentaries) and scrolling one will scroll the other so that they show the same material (in so far as is possible).
:::If Xiphos has this, I do not know how to do it :) I've considered adding a feature like this and would like to sometime, but it is not there now.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::I should add that Xiphos does allow parallel scrolling in the same manner as others. Not with commentary (yet).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== GIFs ==

I removed the note about GIF in graphics format support, changing it to JPEG only. I can see no reasonable reason to support GIF in Sword. PNG is far superior at all of the things GIF was previously used for. You can achieve the same or better quality with greater compression using PNG rather than GIF. Also, we don't actually support GIF on BibleCS, though it would take about 10 minutes to add support for it. (None of this has anything to do with the patents that encumbered GIF in the past, since they're all expired.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 00:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:As I noted above, there are already modules using GIF; there may be cases where content is already in GIF, in which case it's perhaps easiest to just leave it that way. If it's trivial to add it, why not just add it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

::To my knowledge, there is only one module using GIFs, and it's not CrossWire content. Material in GIFs can be bulk converted to PNGs. The only officially supported image file format is JPEG (although the first image test module actually consisted of BMPs). I think it's very reasonable to expand that to include PNGs, since they are useful in a variety of circumstances where JPEG is an inferior choice. But I can't see anything that GIF offers that PNG doesn't do better. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there is one argument I can see for (whatever not officially supported) image format - and that is copyright restrictions. Stuff like "distribute at will, but do not change in any form or way". Having said this I have not come across this wrt image formats and would consider a limitation of formats which ensures that all frontends can make equal use of it is a useful thing. What might be worthwhile though - and that goes way beyond this particular comparison page is a test module with every semi-relevant image format under the sun thrown in and then we could map which frontends (and not just the PC/Mac) ones can deal with them. It is clear that Webkit and Xul derrived fronends are pretty limitless in their support, while others might be a lot more restricted. It would be good to know. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Osk, this is a strong statement, even though I agree with it. I think that our "module making" guide should be explicit in stating "Only use jpeg now and after 1.5.12, you can also use png. Using any other kind of image will result in a module that cannot be used in one or more SWORD applications. Submission of a module with other image formats will hinder its acceptance into the CrossWire repository as such images will need to be converted into a supported format."--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 13:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== BpBible and font handling ==
<s>I think there is some serious misunderstanding here - unless I do not understand BpBible or do something seriously wrong. When I run BpBible I can change the fonts used to display material. But I can '''not''' set a font for a specific module - FarTPV with Nazli while ESV with Times new Roman. This is meant with font per module - or All Farsi modules get to use Nazli while all English ones use Sans Serif. The font handling of BpBible does not work when e.g. an Armenian module and a Farsi commentary is open as there is no font handling both languages. So I reverted Ben's contribution here. </s>[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 00:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Are you using 0.4? It does this. [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 00:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::refdoc: file->set fonts--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
<s>.Yes I use 0.4. But using file-setfonts results in all texts on dispolay changing their font. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]</s>
Sorry, my apologies Ben - I had downloaded 0.4 but was using 0.3 on this laptop. I test on a couple of different machines and got mixed up. This is now corrected. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Software & module updates - checking for updates via a proxy server? ==

If your frontend is installed on a computer that accesses the internet via a proxy server, when the application checks for either software updates or module updates, one of the features we should expect is whether this has configurable support for access via a proxy server. Please compare on this. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:For an example of a program that does this nicely, see [http://www.docu-track.com/home/prod_user/PDF-XChange_Tools/pdfx_viewer PDF-XChange Viewer]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think all which use a module manager do this.

Xiphos does not allow specifying a proxy server and I have not seen such a feature in any of the other programs. In linux, Xiphos should pick this up from the environment. On Windows, I do not know what the behavior would be. For Xiphos, I suspect that this would be something that would have to be added to the engine, although I don't know for sure. Perhaps there is an environment variable that curl will pick up. Although we haven't had reports yet, this is something that concerns me. I know from experience that configuring a program to use FTP through one or more firewalls, plus a proxy server is very difficult, particularly when the program doesn't allow setting the proxy manually but expects the environment to handle it. So in summary, no not all which use the module manager do this, certainly not Xiphos. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that the first time I ever used GnomeSword, I was behind a proxy (this was in linux, of course). I don't believe I ever got it working properly.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I just realized that BibleDesktop does allow specifying a proxy server. I believe this was why I first used BD rather than one of the other frontends. Kudos, DM --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]], thank you. The other thing that we do is http rather than ftp. Many firewalls block ftp but not http. (We still have the old ftp code lying around, but it was being blocked by XP SP2) So when we added http we also added proxy.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 04:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Friendly dates? ==

What is meant by friendly dates? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
:23 of February instead of 02.23 [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:Also it should be in the user's language.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Footnote expansion ==

The reported "1221 character limit" in BibleCS footnotes is an issue somewhat--and there's a fairly simple fix that we put out in some test builds back when the NET was being encoded. But it should be borne in mind that the NET, as encoded, is not official CrossWire content and warnings were given at the time it was produced about long footnotes. It's not clear to me that this is really a failing in BibleCS, rather that the NET is badly encoded (and I know others have the same opinion, if for other reasons, such as bad character encoding). So, ability to display improperly long footnotes should be fixed in BibleCS, but the single case where this arises as a problem should also be repaired. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 19:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

::This problem is not just for the NET. I have seen other things truncated, such as Strong's entries. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 21:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay... I spent a couple minutes testing this and can explain the behavior. There is no "1221 character limit". Firstly, there's no set character limit, there's actually a size limit, which depends on the text itself unless you use a monospaced font and which depends on the font size you use itself. Almost all notes, Strong's entries, etc. will display fine, assuming you don't increase the font size. But I have verified that Eccl 1.1 note 1, the longest note in NET according to Karl, does still get truncated. So I still think BibleCS should apply the NOTES commentary virtual module that we tested briefly. And I still think the NET is poorly encoded. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::one of the first things I do is increase the font size. You're saying that it shouldn't be considered a bug if you can read it without increasing the font size. This is fairly horrible program design in my opinion. It is surely something I would want to know as a user. Again, I haven't actually tried the NET, I saw this with other notes. See, for example, http://picasaweb.google.com/ransom1982/Gnomesword#5277582407118819138. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::: No, I didn't say it wasn't a bug. The report was erroneous. I have corrected it. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 11:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::: Except that I wouldn't consider 15 lines extremely long. Perhaps it should say something about depending on the font size. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 16:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::So I tried it at my preferred font size of 14pt. It truncates after about 15 lines, which happens fairly frequently for the NETfree I was testing, and for strong's references routinely for another module I have. This module is not using the default strong's but one with somewhat longer definitions (privately created). In addition, with NETfree, many of the Greek words were unreadable in the footnotes. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::::If the module is shipped with a default font that has inadequate precomposed Greek coverage (or with no default font at all when the user has his default font set to one with inadequate Greek coverage), then, yes, Greek obviously won't show up correctly. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 11:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::::Actually, this isn't obvious at all. The program should either use Window's normal font fallback methods or provide its own. Windows by default has excellent fallback mechanisms so if any font on the system has the symbol, Windows will substitute that font. Xiphos is dependent on Pango which has chosen to ignore the Window's methods for this and instead provides another fallback mechanism. It isn't as reliable (imo), however, it will certainly allow multiple fonts to be used in a single text to fulfill all of the symbols needed. So if BibleCS can't do this at all (and it can't as far as I can tell) that's another serious limitation. There are relatively few fonts with good enough coverage on their own to cover multiple languages in the same text, so fallback mechanisms are essential. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 16:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

: Well--my bad for having implemented this and then deleted or lost it, but I dug through the mailing list archives for the discussion of virtual modules and think it should be fairly easy to re-create the NOTES commentary virtual module. Some further discussion of this and other virtual modules here: [[Whiteboard/Virtual_Modules]]. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

== Poetry Indentation levels ==

Probably 1 level or 2 level does not accurately describe what is being referred to here. BPB has poetry support for the ESV to match the printed version. This requires indenting on more than just the first line (which is what Xiphos does). See http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=psalm+1&src=esv.org for a comparison. Also search the sword-devel archives for this "Poetry and indented lines".

: The ESV SWORD module does not mark up 2 level poetry using standard OSIS. OSIS does not support such a notion. When I created the OSIS for the ESV, I preserved the markup in the original file using types. So there are <l> elements with type="x-br". This is entirely an invention of mine. It is not reasonable to have any x-types that I make up for a particular module as being meaningful. That is, I don't think any frontend should look for x-br on a <l> element and do something different. If we update the module, this may change. If we discuss it and then document the behavior in [[OSIS Bibles]] that would be fine.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 19:58, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:: This looks like an appropriate response to the email I referenced above, which got no replies. Perhaps you should reply to it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:16, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
::: I'd be glad to, but I'm not sure which one you are referring to. Would you mind giving date and subject? Thanks.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 22:53, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::::As above, subject is "Poetry and indented lines", date is 11/04/08. Direct link http://www.crosswire.org/pipermail/sword-devel/2008-November/029486.html --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

: Actually, according to the email, BPB is using the "x-indent" marker for this, which seems like a very reasonable thing to do. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-09T00:05:03Z

Mwtalbert: /* Poetry Indentation levels */ BPB is using x-indent marker rather than x-br

== Project Links ==
For the front end links, we need to choose either links to homepages or links to wiki pages, not both. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

== Localization ==
I would recommend not listing that front ends can be localized. I don't think that actually matters to any users. What is important, and hence what we should list, is the existing list of UI localizations for each front end. (Ability to display RtoL text is a separate issue, independent of UI localization, so I think that's fine to keep.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

:The original intention of each entry in the table was/is that it gets removed if a feature is present in all frontends. This one means little to end users , but it means something to translators and developers. If we can find out whether SwordBible can get translated easily then all are localisable and the feature should be listed above the table.

Does localization extend to using different numerals for chapter & verse navigation & verse markers ? Or do some Frontends retain digits 0...9 even when everything else is localized? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think BD is the only one that does bi-directional number shaping. That is the user can type in localized digits and BD will shape it into 0-9 (if not already as such). And when displaying it transforms from 0-9 into the user's localized representation, if different. We only do this for user input and program generated numbers. We don't do it for numbers that are explicitly in the text. IMHO, text should be displayed as is. (For ICU's Javadoc on it see: http://icu-project.org/apiref/icu4j/com/ibm/icu/text/ArabicShaping.html).--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

::Here is [http://www.code2000.net/numbersutf.htm A Table of Numbers] in various scripts from Arabic to Tibetan (and more). [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

== Archiving ==
"Archiving" means what? Removal to another location? Compression? Consider whether this is a feature that is actually important to users in their process of making a decision between front ends--not just an attempt at one-upping. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 01:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Osk - if you mistook this table as one-upmanship then you are badly mistaken. I tried to unravel the narrative everyone seems to give about their frontend. Archiving is GS tem for keeping modules out of sight but available. It does what it says on the tin. BT has (I think) a different solution to the same concern. The tables are quite obviously increasingly not anymore for first time users, but that is quite irrelevant. We can always finally extract the core points for a message to users, but there are other uses for these tables possible too - for developers, for translators - where to concentrate effort etc [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Xiphos's concept of archiving is different than what is explained here. It does not actually 'hide' the module; it will still be available after archiving. Archiving zips up the module (preserving correct paths) so that it can be easily transferred to another machine. This is handy for user-created modules if you want to share them with someone else, and will probably be an integral part of future plans to allow uploading modules. Also, you can archive a module, then remove it (which would also affect other apps). Xiphos provides no way for 'hiding' without complete removal (although it probably should). However, the archiving feature is unique and provides benefit to end users. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Complex Scripts ==
What does "Complex Scripts" mean in this context? When people talk about complex scripts, they're not generally talking about basic things like Arabic shaping. They generally mean things like contextual shaping of Indic or rising baseline Arabic calligraphy. And this feature could have differing values for a single front end, depending on the platform. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think originally Peter meant support for Myanmar which BibleCS lacks. I take issue with the notation (with Uniscribe) because I *have* Uniscribe, and have told BibleCS to use a font that I *know* has the correct symbols, yet BibleCS can still not display the text. --[[User:mwtalbert|mwtalbert]]
::: This is a bad misunderstanding or misquote. I never singled out BibleCS in this matter. All frontends failed BurJudson, some worse some less bad. The level of support can clearly not always get answered with simply yes/no. But as such it is an important matter - as some frontends are constitutionally incapable of rendereing such scripts and others require additional work (which is fine if it works) [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 23:04, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::So, should we change the category "Complex Scripts" to "BurJudson works"? I could release a module (assuming I could get permission, that is) that would universally fail because none of the existing front ends can support its writing system. Would we then mark all front ends as not supporting complex scripts?
::The notation about Uniscribe is more descriptive than a "yes" or "no", since the best possible result any front end can report is support of ''some'' complex scripts. Unless I'm simply mistaken (which is certainly possible) and BibleCS's RTF control doesn't actually use Uniscribe, the failure to correctly render BurJudson is simply indicative of Uniscribe not completely supporting that script yet. (I will investigate whether I'm wrong about Uniscribe.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 20:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

If you could explain how you managed to get BibleCS to do anything more than display little boxes for the text in BurJudson, I'd be interested in knowing. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 04:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: I just updated BurJudson to expect [http://scripts.sil.org/Padauk Padauk] by default so following an update or manual font change it should work for you, but prior to that it had required the [http://www.thanlwinsoft.org/ThanLwinSoft/Downloads/Fonts/PadaukOT-2.1.exe PadaukOT font]. The latter has since been discontinued since SIL added OT tables to their font. If you have another Unicode font with Myanmar support, you will have to set it either in the .conf directly or via the module preferences panel. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I expected that when I changed all the Bible texts to use Padauk it would attempt to use that for BurJudson. Apparently it doesn't work that way. I changed the .conf to use Paduak instead of PadaukOT and it works now (at least to the point of showing the characters, I didn't check specific rendering issues).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

It should probably be mentioned, since BurJudson is being taken as indicative of complex script rendering capability, that Myanmar text is probably the least likely to exhibit correct rendering of any script. Myanmar was first added to Unicode at version 4.0 in 2003. Apparently no one liked the encoding model, so it was radically changed in Unicode 5.1 (released last April). As a result documents may not be updated to Unicode 5.1 encoding (I doubt BurJudson has been)--although many fonts have already been updated to Unicode 5.1's Myanmar encoding model (Padauk and PadaukOT both are). Furthermore, text layout engines may or may not be updated. (I would guess that Graphite has been updated, but the latest Uniscribe has not.) So it would be reasonable to expect a bit of chaos within the world of Myanmar text for the next couple years. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: Fair point. Do we have any other module which tests well the same concepts? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:: I'm (slowly) working on a script demo module, which will include an entry for each script identified in [http://unicode.org/iso15924/iso15924-codes.html ISO 15924]. I had intended it for testing transliteration facilities, but we can also use it to test rendering in general. More immediately, the UDHR module contains texts in many languages, using many scripts, a good portion of them complex (though about 80% of the entries are probably either Latin or Cyrillic). Notably, UDHR contains the same Myanmar text encoded using the Unicode 4.0 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 5)) and the Unicode 5.1 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 6)). --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 10:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I also think the column should go into module support next to the RtoL support - I will do this later today. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Image GenBook support ==
Users do not know what GenBook means. Are images really unsupported in any kind of module type? --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:There is a bug in Bible Desktop, that has been fixed in SVN, that did not properly determine the proper display a Dictionary (LD) with images that is also marked Category=Maps. BD/JSword support all image types that Java can render. I don't know what that is, but at least it includes all the types that we would use in a module.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

== Image Formats / other Image Module support ==
These are not things that an end-user cares about. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
: I agree. I think this can be generalized to a bigger issue. Karl has a wonderful repository of non-official, very useful modules. These may show problems in end-user applications. For example, if his map modules have png images, then there is some front-end that does not support it. The user cares about available modules working or not working.
: I already mentioned the Bible Desktop bug regarding LD image modules marked as Maps. While I routinely test JSword/BD against all CrossWire modules, I don't against Karl's repository. Given it's visibility and value, I think I should.
: The bigger question is how do we note short-comings/bugs in a particular application? I don't think this is the appropriate venue. (Though I don't mind JSword being called out as lagging SWORD.)--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I have to run to church right now, but as soon as I get a chance, I'm going to nuke the whole Images category down to a single, uninformative "Supports Images" column, universally marked with "yes". --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

What was this, Osk? I have restored the section and would appreciate if it stays up. This section has meaning and is reflected in existing modules [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

To be clear this is not about bugs but about frontend limitations - so once it is clear that all frontends can actually deal with all module types then the point simply gets deleted and amalgamated in the "all frontends do xyz" list. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:All front ends support basically the same set of features, with respect to images, in either their current release or in SVN. And these are not end-user concerns, they are developer concerns. Users don't know which format module images use or which kind of module they will appear in, they simply expect content they download to work. So this whole section is completely unnecessary to users. Front end developers don't need it either, since all limitations have already been worked around (namely, the SVN versions of all front ends should now support JPEG & PNG images in all module types). (I don't consider other formats necessary, so we won't ever release content that uses other image formats.) The particulars of which versions of various front ends support which formats & which module types may be useful to content developers, but I can advise them of that during the submission process, and this need not be included as part of a feature matrix aimed at end users. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Do they? If all frontends (at current svn level) can have all module types laced with images this column will obviously go the same way as any other column which is all round "yes". Wrt image formats - svg is the one notable format which brings enormous benefits (due to its translatability) , so svg support is something which is valuable. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

There are already modules that have images in gif format, so I think it should be listed. Not sure why it should *never* be supported. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

This is slightly off-topic, and perhaps it should be reported elsewhere, but I've just confirmed that BibleCS has '''NO''' image support if the images aren't in modules under the BibleCS installation directory. I have SWORD_PATH set to M:/Sword (shared network drive), and none of my image modules were working. I finally added the mods.d folder back (BibleCS then ignores SWORD_PATH), installed an image module with the InstallManager, which then worked (after a restart, of course). This is a fairly serious bug (at least it would be for me, as installing modules under the BibleCS installation directory is not an option). --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 10:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

== Study Notes ==
What are study notes in the tagging section? [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 09:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:Study notes are simply a text editor type note taking facility which then can get exported - e.g. for sermon preparation. This could have gone just as well to '''other''', or where ever, but in the end it is often the final result of a search and bookmarking exercise that you go and write something up which tyou then print and take somewhere else. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 22:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::Personal study notes in a multi-user OS may be ''global'' (all users see them) or ''individual'' (current user sees only his/her own). Could we include a table row that shows which applies? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== BibleCS Portability ==
BibleCS is not properly portable. For once I'm not even applying the stringent PortableApps.com "stealth" requirements. It depends on some libraries (which they are escapes me) and controls which may not be installed on the local user's machine. Also, it leaves stuff all over the place in the registry, and registers itself and so on in a way which leaves orphaned entries in the registry in a most horrible way. What I really complain about though is the fact that on some computers, it won't even just be "Just Works™". For reference on some issues, see [http://portableapps.com/node/10582 this thread] on PortableApps.com. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 10:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:I have just read the thread and I don't think it applies. BibleCS is properly portable wrt to the registry, but it takes some work. First, one has to install it to the default location, which uses the registry. Then one copies c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to a thumb drive. Then it is un-installed from the local machine. This is a one time operation. Second, the user has to use the built-in module installer and not the windows modules downloaded from CrossWire in Windows format. The latter uses the registry. Is it this specific path that prevents the "Just Works". It would be simple enough to zip the contents of that directory and make it available as a portable download. Would that qualify as "Just Works"?
:As to the library problem, if you can recall them that would be great. This it the first I have heard of this.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::It registers all sorts of messy things... in my books, that ruins it, but it still Just Works™. See my comment a bit lower down as to the rest. Absolute paths can be a big problem though. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:You can't recall which libraries it requires because it doesn't. Everything needed by BibleCS is contained within its directory. It writes a few registry entries, but does not need them for its own functioning (only for private protocol calls). And those registry entries really could be deleted upon exit, if desired. So if you move BibleCS around to computers other than that to which it was installed, it will work perfectly fine. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::Got a feeling it was the rich text component or something. The protocol and executable registration is a nuisance as well, and I'd need to test whether it was really dependant on these - if so, it's unlikely to run as a limited user on a new machine. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

FWIW I consider this discussion a bit beside the point. If something runs off a USB drive it is portable in all practical sense. If it leaves a little bit of bit-garbage behind then it is still ''portable'', but not ''securely portable'' in the sense that no one will ever know you used it there - but that is a second matter. If the reason that you do not want to leave anything behind is indeed your physical or job security then even portable apps has a massive problem - and that is teh fact that USB drives get logged by Windows - at least if you do a half decent set-up. The only way to securely (in that particular sense) deploy an application is by running it off a bootable CD. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 08:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to get involved in this discussion, as it doesn't matter to me at all. However, I just uninstalled BibleCS from my Windows 7 computer, and it left icudt38.dll, InstallManager.exe, and userprefs.conf in the installation directory. Perhaps something is wrong in the uninstaller? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:small addition. I could not find any registry keys left behind. Also, I performed the uninstall on XP, and it left the same files behind, although the installer briefly flashed that it was uninstalling InstallManager.exe. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 05:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

::My opinion as the original author of the installer: The uninstaller leaving modules and application generated content is not a bug. But leaving icudt38.dll and InstallManager.exe is. Conceptually the installer installs two parts: BibleCS specific parts (the executables and their dlls) and shareable parts (i.e. locales.d, the modules and other things that all SWORD apps can use). I think it should have an option regarding the shareable parts. It probably should put these elsewhere and not in "The SWORD Project" directory.

:::My personal opinion is that leaving anything at all under Program Files is a bug. As a user, I would expect to be able to delete that and not delete my personal preferences as I would expect them to be stored with all my other application preferences. That's beside the point here. If it helps any, I did choose to leave the shared parts during both uninstalls. Perhaps InstallManager.exe and icudt38.dll got put in the wrong place in the uninstall script?--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll try again. [[User:Osk|Osk]] reverted my correction last time I did it. BibleCS, when run from a USB disk, '''will''' leave stuff behind; for starters (I haven't done a full scan, but these are the ones I remember and found):

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\sword.exe (put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\SharedDLLs\[install path]\sword.exe (not sure, probably put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\sword (sword:// protocol, put in by BibleCS, not sure if BibleCS depends on it)

If any of these are created by BibleCS if they are not there, which they are, then it '''does''' leave traces on the host machine.

Perhaps we could also say "don't use the Install Manager", as I understand it just plain doesn't work (it was the main reason Kevin Porter abandoned The SWORD Project for Windows Portable). At least, though, can we remove the word "no" in "leaves no traces on host machine" once more? [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

: No, actually, no I didn't. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 15:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:: It was me who changed this. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:Chris, did you find these keys on a computer that did not have them after running sword.exe or InstallManager.exe from the USB drive? I find that hard to believe. My experience, if you use the installer to install it to a USB device, it will leave traces on the computer on which you did the install. But if you install it temporarily to a computer and copy c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to the USB drive and then use that USB drive on a different computer, it should not change the registry of that machine. AFAIR, it is the installer that puts these keys into the registry, not the program. AFAIR, the InstallManager.exe does not change the registry, either. This program will use the mods.d and modules folder in the same directory to write it's modules.

:: In the thread last year "[GnomeSword-developers] win32 installer for testing", Chris Little said: "I'm not sure whether you're setting the private protocol handler in the installer or in the GS app, but you should be aware that BibleCS sets the handler to call itself every time it is launched. (It also sets the private protocol handler used by Logos iff it is not already set.)". So just based on that I would say it does set registry entries on startup, not on install. Not sure about installmanager, though [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 02:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll put together a PortableApps version of BibleCS this weekend so that we can put the whole issue to rest. No need to continue debating, but continue if it makes you happy. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Windowing and Text Display ==

I have taken out the Complex Scripts bit and shoved into Module support - it belongs more into that category. The narrative for windows display I think is best expressed in an adequate screenshot. The relevant principles which can be answerd with yes/no are - so far, I think, please add
# Un/linkable texts - e.g Commentary and Bible or several Bibles (both needs to be present - linking and unlinking)
# Parallel display of whole passages in a side by side fashion,
# the ability to hide unneeded Windows/screen areas.
# The ability to have several texts of a kind open at different books/chapters and being able to switch forward and backward
# Unconnected passages on one tab/window

A fair number of BD's list of Others is conceptually also an expression of verse lists

[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

What exactly is meant by poetry display here? Xiphos does display poetry with the correct line breaks and indentation (as in the module, but not exactly as the printed ESV as BPB does)--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Installer ==
Refdoc, I see that you have that BibleCS's installer sorts modules by language. I don't see that. I see it by type only.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
:Have I? mistake. This layout of the table is much better, but i still get confused occasionally. Please do check. Thanks [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] Sorted. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

==Soon?==

I really do not like "soon" as an entry. What is the cut off point for soon? I'd rather that things are yes/no/partial/not applicable and once something is implemented it will change to yes. Otherwise we will have a totally meaningless table. My honest/humble opinion. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 13:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I had a second look at what you marked as soon and I think this is actually fair enough - but I remarked it as partial. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 14:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I think soon or planned are fine categories, but it needs to have specific meaning. To me "soon" means that the capability is in beta and is generally available for testing. Perhaps, "beta" would be better than "soon" and it would have a link to the beta. To me "planned" means that the feature has been checked into source code control and will be part of the next release. Right now we have "yes" with footnotes stating this or that will be available with 1.5.12. Perhaps, "ready" would be better than "planned".--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Indexed Search ==

We have listed the technology, but what are the practical differences? Do all applications index on the same fields? Presumably yes, in which case the technology should be come an internal like other toolkits used. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 16:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The practical outworkings of above technological differences could/should form simply new rows - like crossboundary searches etc.[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

I agree with the new rows. Not sure what they should be.

Compared to SWORD (with key, body and strong), JSword indexes these and additional fields, allowing:
* note:(Abraham) - Find verses with notes about Abraham
* xref:(John 3:16) - Find verses with cross-references to John 3:16. (JSword will normalize the reference to an OSIS ID.)
* heading:(Moses) - Find verses with headings containing Moses.
JSword indexes also allow stemmed searches. It also has different analyzers for different languages. Our Thai analyzer, is necessary to get the word breaks correctly.

The other thing that a search engine bring is a search syntax. Each is different. CLucene and Lucene have the same syntax. I presume BPBible and MacSword have a different one.

Even with Lucene and CLucene, there are differences. JSword can use a SWORD index, but SWORD can't use a JSword index. The reason is that JSword is using Lucene 2.x and Clucene is compatible with 1.4.x. These have different storage formats. CLucene will never catch up with Lucene. We moved away from 1.4.x for outrageous performance gains.

The other thing that JSword has (and I think some others do) is passage restricted searching. This is layered on top of the search engine. If there is a different engine being used by an app, this feature might not be there.

That an app uses Lucene/CLucene/Apple Search/Custom is not a user concern, but it's impact is. One impact of MacSword using Apple's search is that it is available to Spotlight, the global search of the Mac. This is awesome!
--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 18:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Which make sme think whether at least Linux applications could not do the same - beagle etc. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 18:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

In addition to this, BibleTime also indexes several fields that Xiphos and SPW do not. I believe they include the fields that JSword indexes. This is an important distinction, and one where the official Sword indexing is lagging behind these others (at least as regards fields indexed, but it's a definite negative imo) As far as I know, only Xiphos and SPW are using the official Sword indexing --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==

The second table under this heading should be transposed, and should use abbreviations for the frontend applications. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:No. It is the source table for the first table it is the last table not completely imported into the vertical format. Once completely imported it will get deleted. Reason for the delay being thet I a) had no time for it yet and b) there are some things which do not add up in my testing [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 19:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

== Do any frontends or modules also install fonts? ==

Another question to ask of each application is, "Do any frontends or modules also install fonts?". [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::none do as far as I am aware [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:::The Xiphos Windows installer does install fonts --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if this is what was meant. More rather would/could the programme chase up needed fonts and download them. Or did I misunderstand you David? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

The program FlashCards (Greek/Hebrew learning tool) will load a font without installing them to the local OS. Not installing them locally is important for PortableApps' "leave no trace." I've thought of adding this capability to JSword and distribute some SIL fonts with it. It would be cool to be able to specify by URL some fonts to download. My thought it that we would host a open source fonts on the CrossWire server and serve them as we do modules and a new conf's entry FontSource would provide that URL.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Display of information about the source text? ==

Frontends differ in the amount of information they display about the source text for each module, and on how they manage this. This too needs a comparison chart. It's especially important for textual provenance and copyright status, etc. It is a chore to always have to refer to the CrossWire downloads page. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
:Among the frontends with which I am familiar, BD does this very nicely. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Syncrhonized scrolling? ==

Do all frontends that support parallel texts also provide an optional setting for synchronized vertical scrolling? If not, please compare. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::do any? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
::BD, MS, SPW, (others?) show their parallel Bibles in the same pane with a single scroll bar. BD also allows for commentaries to be shown in parallel view. So all of these have synchronized vertical scrolling. In BD (and perhaps the others) you can choose to show Bibles in different views (tabs or windows) and each has their own scroll bar. From what I have heard, but not seen, I believe Xiphos is unique in that you can tie any two verse number based views together (i.e. Bibles and/or Commentaries) and scrolling one will scroll the other so that they show the same material (in so far as is possible).
:::If Xiphos has this, I do not know how to do it :) I've considered adding a feature like this and would like to sometime, but it is not there now.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::I should add that Xiphos does allow parallel scrolling in the same manner as others. Not with commentary (yet).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== GIFs ==

I removed the note about GIF in graphics format support, changing it to JPEG only. I can see no reasonable reason to support GIF in Sword. PNG is far superior at all of the things GIF was previously used for. You can achieve the same or better quality with greater compression using PNG rather than GIF. Also, we don't actually support GIF on BibleCS, though it would take about 10 minutes to add support for it. (None of this has anything to do with the patents that encumbered GIF in the past, since they're all expired.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 00:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:As I noted above, there are already modules using GIF; there may be cases where content is already in GIF, in which case it's perhaps easiest to just leave it that way. If it's trivial to add it, why not just add it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

::To my knowledge, there is only one module using GIFs, and it's not CrossWire content. Material in GIFs can be bulk converted to PNGs. The only officially supported image file format is JPEG (although the first image test module actually consisted of BMPs). I think it's very reasonable to expand that to include PNGs, since they are useful in a variety of circumstances where JPEG is an inferior choice. But I can't see anything that GIF offers that PNG doesn't do better. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there is one argument I can see for (whatever not officially supported) image format - and that is copyright restrictions. Stuff like "distribute at will, but do not change in any form or way". Having said this I have not come across this wrt image formats and would consider a limitation of formats which ensures that all frontends can make equal use of it is a useful thing. What might be worthwhile though - and that goes way beyond this particular comparison page is a test module with every semi-relevant image format under the sun thrown in and then we could map which frontends (and not just the PC/Mac) ones can deal with them. It is clear that Webkit and Xul derrived fronends are pretty limitless in their support, while others might be a lot more restricted. It would be good to know. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Osk, this is a strong statement, even though I agree with it. I think that our "module making" guide should be explicit in stating "Only use jpeg now and after 1.5.12, you can also use png. Using any other kind of image will result in a module that cannot be used in one or more SWORD applications. Submission of a module with other image formats will hinder its acceptance into the CrossWire repository as such images will need to be converted into a supported format."--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 13:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== BpBible and font handling ==
<s>I think there is some serious misunderstanding here - unless I do not understand BpBible or do something seriously wrong. When I run BpBible I can change the fonts used to display material. But I can '''not''' set a font for a specific module - FarTPV with Nazli while ESV with Times new Roman. This is meant with font per module - or All Farsi modules get to use Nazli while all English ones use Sans Serif. The font handling of BpBible does not work when e.g. an Armenian module and a Farsi commentary is open as there is no font handling both languages. So I reverted Ben's contribution here. </s>[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 00:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Are you using 0.4? It does this. [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 00:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::refdoc: file->set fonts--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
<s>.Yes I use 0.4. But using file-setfonts results in all texts on dispolay changing their font. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]</s>
Sorry, my apologies Ben - I had downloaded 0.4 but was using 0.3 on this laptop. I test on a couple of different machines and got mixed up. This is now corrected. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Software & module updates - checking for updates via a proxy server? ==

If your frontend is installed on a computer that accesses the internet via a proxy server, when the application checks for either software updates or module updates, one of the features we should expect is whether this has configurable support for access via a proxy server. Please compare on this. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:For an example of a program that does this nicely, see [http://www.docu-track.com/home/prod_user/PDF-XChange_Tools/pdfx_viewer PDF-XChange Viewer]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think all which use a module manager do this.

Xiphos does not allow specifying a proxy server and I have not seen such a feature in any of the other programs. In linux, Xiphos should pick this up from the environment. On Windows, I do not know what the behavior would be. For Xiphos, I suspect that this would be something that would have to be added to the engine, although I don't know for sure. Perhaps there is an environment variable that curl will pick up. Although we haven't had reports yet, this is something that concerns me. I know from experience that configuring a program to use FTP through one or more firewalls, plus a proxy server is very difficult, particularly when the program doesn't allow setting the proxy manually but expects the environment to handle it. So in summary, no not all which use the module manager do this, certainly not Xiphos. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that the first time I ever used GnomeSword, I was behind a proxy (this was in linux, of course). I don't believe I ever got it working properly.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I just realized that BibleDesktop does allow specifying a proxy server. I believe this was why I first used BD rather than one of the other frontends. Kudos, DM --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]], thank you. The other thing that we do is http rather than ftp. Many firewalls block ftp but not http. (We still have the old ftp code lying around, but it was being blocked by XP SP2) So when we added http we also added proxy.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 04:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Friendly dates? ==

What is meant by friendly dates? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
:23 of February instead of 02.23 [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:Also it should be in the user's language.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Footnote expansion ==

The reported "1221 character limit" in BibleCS footnotes is an issue somewhat--and there's a fairly simple fix that we put out in some test builds back when the NET was being encoded. But it should be borne in mind that the NET, as encoded, is not official CrossWire content and warnings were given at the time it was produced about long footnotes. It's not clear to me that this is really a failing in BibleCS, rather that the NET is badly encoded (and I know others have the same opinion, if for other reasons, such as bad character encoding). So, ability to display improperly long footnotes should be fixed in BibleCS, but the single case where this arises as a problem should also be repaired. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 19:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

::This problem is not just for the NET. I have seen other things truncated, such as Strong's entries. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 21:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay... I spent a couple minutes testing this and can explain the behavior. There is no "1221 character limit". Firstly, there's no set character limit, there's actually a size limit, which depends on the text itself unless you use a monospaced font and which depends on the font size you use itself. Almost all notes, Strong's entries, etc. will display fine, assuming you don't increase the font size. But I have verified that Eccl 1.1 note 1, the longest note in NET according to Karl, does still get truncated. So I still think BibleCS should apply the NOTES commentary virtual module that we tested briefly. And I still think the NET is poorly encoded. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::one of the first things I do is increase the font size. You're saying that it shouldn't be considered a bug if you can read it without increasing the font size. This is fairly horrible program design in my opinion. It is surely something I would want to know as a user. Again, I haven't actually tried the NET, I saw this with other notes. See, for example, http://picasaweb.google.com/ransom1982/Gnomesword#5277582407118819138. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::: No, I didn't say it wasn't a bug. The report was erroneous. I have corrected it. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 11:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::: Except that I wouldn't consider 15 lines extremely long. Perhaps it should say something about depending on the font size. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 16:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::So I tried it at my preferred font size of 14pt. It truncates after about 15 lines, which happens fairly frequently for the NETfree I was testing, and for strong's references routinely for another module I have. This module is not using the default strong's but one with somewhat longer definitions (privately created). In addition, with NETfree, many of the Greek words were unreadable in the footnotes. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::::If the module is shipped with a default font that has inadequate precomposed Greek coverage (or with no default font at all when the user has his default font set to one with inadequate Greek coverage), then, yes, Greek obviously won't show up correctly. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 11:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::::Actually, this isn't obvious at all. The program should either use Window's normal font fallback methods or provide its own. Windows by default has excellent fallback mechanisms so if any font on the system has the symbol, Windows will substitute that font. Xiphos is dependent on Pango which has chosen to ignore the Window's methods for this and instead provides another fallback mechanism. It isn't as reliable (imo), however, it will certainly allow multiple fonts to be used in a single text to fulfill all of the symbols needed. So if BibleCS can't do this at all (and it can't as far as I can tell) that's another serious limitation. There are relatively few fonts with good enough coverage on their own to cover multiple languages in the same text, so fallback mechanisms are essential. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 16:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

: Well--my bad for having implemented this and then deleted or lost it, but I dug through the mailing list archives for the discussion of virtual modules and think it should be fairly easy to re-create the NOTES commentary virtual module. Some further discussion of this and other virtual modules here: [[Whiteboard/Virtual_Modules]]. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

== Poetry Indentation levels ==

Probably 1 level or 2 level does not accurately describe what is being referred to here. BPB has poetry support for the ESV to match the printed version. This requires indenting on more than just the first line (which is what Xiphos does). See http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=psalm+1&src=esv.org for a comparison. Also search the sword-devel archives for this "Poetry and indented lines".

: The ESV SWORD module does not mark up 2 level poetry using standard OSIS. OSIS does not support such a notion. When I created the OSIS for the ESV, I preserved the markup in the original file using types. So there are <l> elements with type="x-br". This is entirely an invention of mine. It is not reasonable to have any x-types that I make up for a particular module as being meaningful. That is, I don't think any frontend should look for x-br on a <l> element and do something different. If we update the module, this may change. If we discuss it and then document the behavior in [[OSIS Bibles]] that would be fine.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 19:58, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:: This looks like an appropriate response to the email I referenced above, which got no replies. Perhaps you should reply to it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:16, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
::: I'd be glad to, but I'm not sure which one you are referring to. Would you mind giving date and subject? Thanks.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 22:53, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::::As above, subject is "Poetry and indented lines", date is 11/04/08. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

: Actually, according to the email, BPB is using the "x-indent" marker for this, which seems like a very reasonable thing to do. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-09T00:02:20Z

Mwtalbert: /* Poetry Indentation levels */

== Project Links ==
For the front end links, we need to choose either links to homepages or links to wiki pages, not both. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

== Localization ==
I would recommend not listing that front ends can be localized. I don't think that actually matters to any users. What is important, and hence what we should list, is the existing list of UI localizations for each front end. (Ability to display RtoL text is a separate issue, independent of UI localization, so I think that's fine to keep.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

:The original intention of each entry in the table was/is that it gets removed if a feature is present in all frontends. This one means little to end users , but it means something to translators and developers. If we can find out whether SwordBible can get translated easily then all are localisable and the feature should be listed above the table.

Does localization extend to using different numerals for chapter & verse navigation & verse markers ? Or do some Frontends retain digits 0...9 even when everything else is localized? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think BD is the only one that does bi-directional number shaping. That is the user can type in localized digits and BD will shape it into 0-9 (if not already as such). And when displaying it transforms from 0-9 into the user's localized representation, if different. We only do this for user input and program generated numbers. We don't do it for numbers that are explicitly in the text. IMHO, text should be displayed as is. (For ICU's Javadoc on it see: http://icu-project.org/apiref/icu4j/com/ibm/icu/text/ArabicShaping.html).--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

::Here is [http://www.code2000.net/numbersutf.htm A Table of Numbers] in various scripts from Arabic to Tibetan (and more). [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

== Archiving ==
"Archiving" means what? Removal to another location? Compression? Consider whether this is a feature that is actually important to users in their process of making a decision between front ends--not just an attempt at one-upping. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 01:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Osk - if you mistook this table as one-upmanship then you are badly mistaken. I tried to unravel the narrative everyone seems to give about their frontend. Archiving is GS tem for keeping modules out of sight but available. It does what it says on the tin. BT has (I think) a different solution to the same concern. The tables are quite obviously increasingly not anymore for first time users, but that is quite irrelevant. We can always finally extract the core points for a message to users, but there are other uses for these tables possible too - for developers, for translators - where to concentrate effort etc [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Xiphos's concept of archiving is different than what is explained here. It does not actually 'hide' the module; it will still be available after archiving. Archiving zips up the module (preserving correct paths) so that it can be easily transferred to another machine. This is handy for user-created modules if you want to share them with someone else, and will probably be an integral part of future plans to allow uploading modules. Also, you can archive a module, then remove it (which would also affect other apps). Xiphos provides no way for 'hiding' without complete removal (although it probably should). However, the archiving feature is unique and provides benefit to end users. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Complex Scripts ==
What does "Complex Scripts" mean in this context? When people talk about complex scripts, they're not generally talking about basic things like Arabic shaping. They generally mean things like contextual shaping of Indic or rising baseline Arabic calligraphy. And this feature could have differing values for a single front end, depending on the platform. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think originally Peter meant support for Myanmar which BibleCS lacks. I take issue with the notation (with Uniscribe) because I *have* Uniscribe, and have told BibleCS to use a font that I *know* has the correct symbols, yet BibleCS can still not display the text. --[[User:mwtalbert|mwtalbert]]
::: This is a bad misunderstanding or misquote. I never singled out BibleCS in this matter. All frontends failed BurJudson, some worse some less bad. The level of support can clearly not always get answered with simply yes/no. But as such it is an important matter - as some frontends are constitutionally incapable of rendereing such scripts and others require additional work (which is fine if it works) [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 23:04, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::So, should we change the category "Complex Scripts" to "BurJudson works"? I could release a module (assuming I could get permission, that is) that would universally fail because none of the existing front ends can support its writing system. Would we then mark all front ends as not supporting complex scripts?
::The notation about Uniscribe is more descriptive than a "yes" or "no", since the best possible result any front end can report is support of ''some'' complex scripts. Unless I'm simply mistaken (which is certainly possible) and BibleCS's RTF control doesn't actually use Uniscribe, the failure to correctly render BurJudson is simply indicative of Uniscribe not completely supporting that script yet. (I will investigate whether I'm wrong about Uniscribe.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 20:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

If you could explain how you managed to get BibleCS to do anything more than display little boxes for the text in BurJudson, I'd be interested in knowing. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 04:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: I just updated BurJudson to expect [http://scripts.sil.org/Padauk Padauk] by default so following an update or manual font change it should work for you, but prior to that it had required the [http://www.thanlwinsoft.org/ThanLwinSoft/Downloads/Fonts/PadaukOT-2.1.exe PadaukOT font]. The latter has since been discontinued since SIL added OT tables to their font. If you have another Unicode font with Myanmar support, you will have to set it either in the .conf directly or via the module preferences panel. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I expected that when I changed all the Bible texts to use Padauk it would attempt to use that for BurJudson. Apparently it doesn't work that way. I changed the .conf to use Paduak instead of PadaukOT and it works now (at least to the point of showing the characters, I didn't check specific rendering issues).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

It should probably be mentioned, since BurJudson is being taken as indicative of complex script rendering capability, that Myanmar text is probably the least likely to exhibit correct rendering of any script. Myanmar was first added to Unicode at version 4.0 in 2003. Apparently no one liked the encoding model, so it was radically changed in Unicode 5.1 (released last April). As a result documents may not be updated to Unicode 5.1 encoding (I doubt BurJudson has been)--although many fonts have already been updated to Unicode 5.1's Myanmar encoding model (Padauk and PadaukOT both are). Furthermore, text layout engines may or may not be updated. (I would guess that Graphite has been updated, but the latest Uniscribe has not.) So it would be reasonable to expect a bit of chaos within the world of Myanmar text for the next couple years. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: Fair point. Do we have any other module which tests well the same concepts? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:: I'm (slowly) working on a script demo module, which will include an entry for each script identified in [http://unicode.org/iso15924/iso15924-codes.html ISO 15924]. I had intended it for testing transliteration facilities, but we can also use it to test rendering in general. More immediately, the UDHR module contains texts in many languages, using many scripts, a good portion of them complex (though about 80% of the entries are probably either Latin or Cyrillic). Notably, UDHR contains the same Myanmar text encoded using the Unicode 4.0 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 5)) and the Unicode 5.1 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 6)). --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 10:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I also think the column should go into module support next to the RtoL support - I will do this later today. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Image GenBook support ==
Users do not know what GenBook means. Are images really unsupported in any kind of module type? --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:There is a bug in Bible Desktop, that has been fixed in SVN, that did not properly determine the proper display a Dictionary (LD) with images that is also marked Category=Maps. BD/JSword support all image types that Java can render. I don't know what that is, but at least it includes all the types that we would use in a module.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

== Image Formats / other Image Module support ==
These are not things that an end-user cares about. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
: I agree. I think this can be generalized to a bigger issue. Karl has a wonderful repository of non-official, very useful modules. These may show problems in end-user applications. For example, if his map modules have png images, then there is some front-end that does not support it. The user cares about available modules working or not working.
: I already mentioned the Bible Desktop bug regarding LD image modules marked as Maps. While I routinely test JSword/BD against all CrossWire modules, I don't against Karl's repository. Given it's visibility and value, I think I should.
: The bigger question is how do we note short-comings/bugs in a particular application? I don't think this is the appropriate venue. (Though I don't mind JSword being called out as lagging SWORD.)--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I have to run to church right now, but as soon as I get a chance, I'm going to nuke the whole Images category down to a single, uninformative "Supports Images" column, universally marked with "yes". --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

What was this, Osk? I have restored the section and would appreciate if it stays up. This section has meaning and is reflected in existing modules [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

To be clear this is not about bugs but about frontend limitations - so once it is clear that all frontends can actually deal with all module types then the point simply gets deleted and amalgamated in the "all frontends do xyz" list. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:All front ends support basically the same set of features, with respect to images, in either their current release or in SVN. And these are not end-user concerns, they are developer concerns. Users don't know which format module images use or which kind of module they will appear in, they simply expect content they download to work. So this whole section is completely unnecessary to users. Front end developers don't need it either, since all limitations have already been worked around (namely, the SVN versions of all front ends should now support JPEG & PNG images in all module types). (I don't consider other formats necessary, so we won't ever release content that uses other image formats.) The particulars of which versions of various front ends support which formats & which module types may be useful to content developers, but I can advise them of that during the submission process, and this need not be included as part of a feature matrix aimed at end users. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Do they? If all frontends (at current svn level) can have all module types laced with images this column will obviously go the same way as any other column which is all round "yes". Wrt image formats - svg is the one notable format which brings enormous benefits (due to its translatability) , so svg support is something which is valuable. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

There are already modules that have images in gif format, so I think it should be listed. Not sure why it should *never* be supported. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

This is slightly off-topic, and perhaps it should be reported elsewhere, but I've just confirmed that BibleCS has '''NO''' image support if the images aren't in modules under the BibleCS installation directory. I have SWORD_PATH set to M:/Sword (shared network drive), and none of my image modules were working. I finally added the mods.d folder back (BibleCS then ignores SWORD_PATH), installed an image module with the InstallManager, which then worked (after a restart, of course). This is a fairly serious bug (at least it would be for me, as installing modules under the BibleCS installation directory is not an option). --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 10:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

== Study Notes ==
What are study notes in the tagging section? [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 09:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:Study notes are simply a text editor type note taking facility which then can get exported - e.g. for sermon preparation. This could have gone just as well to '''other''', or where ever, but in the end it is often the final result of a search and bookmarking exercise that you go and write something up which tyou then print and take somewhere else. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 22:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::Personal study notes in a multi-user OS may be ''global'' (all users see them) or ''individual'' (current user sees only his/her own). Could we include a table row that shows which applies? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== BibleCS Portability ==
BibleCS is not properly portable. For once I'm not even applying the stringent PortableApps.com "stealth" requirements. It depends on some libraries (which they are escapes me) and controls which may not be installed on the local user's machine. Also, it leaves stuff all over the place in the registry, and registers itself and so on in a way which leaves orphaned entries in the registry in a most horrible way. What I really complain about though is the fact that on some computers, it won't even just be "Just Works™". For reference on some issues, see [http://portableapps.com/node/10582 this thread] on PortableApps.com. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 10:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:I have just read the thread and I don't think it applies. BibleCS is properly portable wrt to the registry, but it takes some work. First, one has to install it to the default location, which uses the registry. Then one copies c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to a thumb drive. Then it is un-installed from the local machine. This is a one time operation. Second, the user has to use the built-in module installer and not the windows modules downloaded from CrossWire in Windows format. The latter uses the registry. Is it this specific path that prevents the "Just Works". It would be simple enough to zip the contents of that directory and make it available as a portable download. Would that qualify as "Just Works"?
:As to the library problem, if you can recall them that would be great. This it the first I have heard of this.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::It registers all sorts of messy things... in my books, that ruins it, but it still Just Works™. See my comment a bit lower down as to the rest. Absolute paths can be a big problem though. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:You can't recall which libraries it requires because it doesn't. Everything needed by BibleCS is contained within its directory. It writes a few registry entries, but does not need them for its own functioning (only for private protocol calls). And those registry entries really could be deleted upon exit, if desired. So if you move BibleCS around to computers other than that to which it was installed, it will work perfectly fine. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::Got a feeling it was the rich text component or something. The protocol and executable registration is a nuisance as well, and I'd need to test whether it was really dependant on these - if so, it's unlikely to run as a limited user on a new machine. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

FWIW I consider this discussion a bit beside the point. If something runs off a USB drive it is portable in all practical sense. If it leaves a little bit of bit-garbage behind then it is still ''portable'', but not ''securely portable'' in the sense that no one will ever know you used it there - but that is a second matter. If the reason that you do not want to leave anything behind is indeed your physical or job security then even portable apps has a massive problem - and that is teh fact that USB drives get logged by Windows - at least if you do a half decent set-up. The only way to securely (in that particular sense) deploy an application is by running it off a bootable CD. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 08:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to get involved in this discussion, as it doesn't matter to me at all. However, I just uninstalled BibleCS from my Windows 7 computer, and it left icudt38.dll, InstallManager.exe, and userprefs.conf in the installation directory. Perhaps something is wrong in the uninstaller? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:small addition. I could not find any registry keys left behind. Also, I performed the uninstall on XP, and it left the same files behind, although the installer briefly flashed that it was uninstalling InstallManager.exe. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 05:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

::My opinion as the original author of the installer: The uninstaller leaving modules and application generated content is not a bug. But leaving icudt38.dll and InstallManager.exe is. Conceptually the installer installs two parts: BibleCS specific parts (the executables and their dlls) and shareable parts (i.e. locales.d, the modules and other things that all SWORD apps can use). I think it should have an option regarding the shareable parts. It probably should put these elsewhere and not in "The SWORD Project" directory.

:::My personal opinion is that leaving anything at all under Program Files is a bug. As a user, I would expect to be able to delete that and not delete my personal preferences as I would expect them to be stored with all my other application preferences. That's beside the point here. If it helps any, I did choose to leave the shared parts during both uninstalls. Perhaps InstallManager.exe and icudt38.dll got put in the wrong place in the uninstall script?--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll try again. [[User:Osk|Osk]] reverted my correction last time I did it. BibleCS, when run from a USB disk, '''will''' leave stuff behind; for starters (I haven't done a full scan, but these are the ones I remember and found):

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\sword.exe (put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\SharedDLLs\[install path]\sword.exe (not sure, probably put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\sword (sword:// protocol, put in by BibleCS, not sure if BibleCS depends on it)

If any of these are created by BibleCS if they are not there, which they are, then it '''does''' leave traces on the host machine.

Perhaps we could also say "don't use the Install Manager", as I understand it just plain doesn't work (it was the main reason Kevin Porter abandoned The SWORD Project for Windows Portable). At least, though, can we remove the word "no" in "leaves no traces on host machine" once more? [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

: No, actually, no I didn't. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 15:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:: It was me who changed this. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:Chris, did you find these keys on a computer that did not have them after running sword.exe or InstallManager.exe from the USB drive? I find that hard to believe. My experience, if you use the installer to install it to a USB device, it will leave traces on the computer on which you did the install. But if you install it temporarily to a computer and copy c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to the USB drive and then use that USB drive on a different computer, it should not change the registry of that machine. AFAIR, it is the installer that puts these keys into the registry, not the program. AFAIR, the InstallManager.exe does not change the registry, either. This program will use the mods.d and modules folder in the same directory to write it's modules.

:: In the thread last year "[GnomeSword-developers] win32 installer for testing", Chris Little said: "I'm not sure whether you're setting the private protocol handler in the installer or in the GS app, but you should be aware that BibleCS sets the handler to call itself every time it is launched. (It also sets the private protocol handler used by Logos iff it is not already set.)". So just based on that I would say it does set registry entries on startup, not on install. Not sure about installmanager, though [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 02:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll put together a PortableApps version of BibleCS this weekend so that we can put the whole issue to rest. No need to continue debating, but continue if it makes you happy. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Windowing and Text Display ==

I have taken out the Complex Scripts bit and shoved into Module support - it belongs more into that category. The narrative for windows display I think is best expressed in an adequate screenshot. The relevant principles which can be answerd with yes/no are - so far, I think, please add
# Un/linkable texts - e.g Commentary and Bible or several Bibles (both needs to be present - linking and unlinking)
# Parallel display of whole passages in a side by side fashion,
# the ability to hide unneeded Windows/screen areas.
# The ability to have several texts of a kind open at different books/chapters and being able to switch forward and backward
# Unconnected passages on one tab/window

A fair number of BD's list of Others is conceptually also an expression of verse lists

[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

What exactly is meant by poetry display here? Xiphos does display poetry with the correct line breaks and indentation (as in the module, but not exactly as the printed ESV as BPB does)--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Installer ==
Refdoc, I see that you have that BibleCS's installer sorts modules by language. I don't see that. I see it by type only.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
:Have I? mistake. This layout of the table is much better, but i still get confused occasionally. Please do check. Thanks [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] Sorted. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

==Soon?==

I really do not like "soon" as an entry. What is the cut off point for soon? I'd rather that things are yes/no/partial/not applicable and once something is implemented it will change to yes. Otherwise we will have a totally meaningless table. My honest/humble opinion. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 13:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I had a second look at what you marked as soon and I think this is actually fair enough - but I remarked it as partial. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 14:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I think soon or planned are fine categories, but it needs to have specific meaning. To me "soon" means that the capability is in beta and is generally available for testing. Perhaps, "beta" would be better than "soon" and it would have a link to the beta. To me "planned" means that the feature has been checked into source code control and will be part of the next release. Right now we have "yes" with footnotes stating this or that will be available with 1.5.12. Perhaps, "ready" would be better than "planned".--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Indexed Search ==

We have listed the technology, but what are the practical differences? Do all applications index on the same fields? Presumably yes, in which case the technology should be come an internal like other toolkits used. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 16:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The practical outworkings of above technological differences could/should form simply new rows - like crossboundary searches etc.[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

I agree with the new rows. Not sure what they should be.

Compared to SWORD (with key, body and strong), JSword indexes these and additional fields, allowing:
* note:(Abraham) - Find verses with notes about Abraham
* xref:(John 3:16) - Find verses with cross-references to John 3:16. (JSword will normalize the reference to an OSIS ID.)
* heading:(Moses) - Find verses with headings containing Moses.
JSword indexes also allow stemmed searches. It also has different analyzers for different languages. Our Thai analyzer, is necessary to get the word breaks correctly.

The other thing that a search engine bring is a search syntax. Each is different. CLucene and Lucene have the same syntax. I presume BPBible and MacSword have a different one.

Even with Lucene and CLucene, there are differences. JSword can use a SWORD index, but SWORD can't use a JSword index. The reason is that JSword is using Lucene 2.x and Clucene is compatible with 1.4.x. These have different storage formats. CLucene will never catch up with Lucene. We moved away from 1.4.x for outrageous performance gains.

The other thing that JSword has (and I think some others do) is passage restricted searching. This is layered on top of the search engine. If there is a different engine being used by an app, this feature might not be there.

That an app uses Lucene/CLucene/Apple Search/Custom is not a user concern, but it's impact is. One impact of MacSword using Apple's search is that it is available to Spotlight, the global search of the Mac. This is awesome!
--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 18:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Which make sme think whether at least Linux applications could not do the same - beagle etc. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 18:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

In addition to this, BibleTime also indexes several fields that Xiphos and SPW do not. I believe they include the fields that JSword indexes. This is an important distinction, and one where the official Sword indexing is lagging behind these others (at least as regards fields indexed, but it's a definite negative imo) As far as I know, only Xiphos and SPW are using the official Sword indexing --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==

The second table under this heading should be transposed, and should use abbreviations for the frontend applications. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:No. It is the source table for the first table it is the last table not completely imported into the vertical format. Once completely imported it will get deleted. Reason for the delay being thet I a) had no time for it yet and b) there are some things which do not add up in my testing [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 19:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

== Do any frontends or modules also install fonts? ==

Another question to ask of each application is, "Do any frontends or modules also install fonts?". [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::none do as far as I am aware [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:::The Xiphos Windows installer does install fonts --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if this is what was meant. More rather would/could the programme chase up needed fonts and download them. Or did I misunderstand you David? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

The program FlashCards (Greek/Hebrew learning tool) will load a font without installing them to the local OS. Not installing them locally is important for PortableApps' "leave no trace." I've thought of adding this capability to JSword and distribute some SIL fonts with it. It would be cool to be able to specify by URL some fonts to download. My thought it that we would host a open source fonts on the CrossWire server and serve them as we do modules and a new conf's entry FontSource would provide that URL.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Display of information about the source text? ==

Frontends differ in the amount of information they display about the source text for each module, and on how they manage this. This too needs a comparison chart. It's especially important for textual provenance and copyright status, etc. It is a chore to always have to refer to the CrossWire downloads page. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
:Among the frontends with which I am familiar, BD does this very nicely. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Syncrhonized scrolling? ==

Do all frontends that support parallel texts also provide an optional setting for synchronized vertical scrolling? If not, please compare. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::do any? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
::BD, MS, SPW, (others?) show their parallel Bibles in the same pane with a single scroll bar. BD also allows for commentaries to be shown in parallel view. So all of these have synchronized vertical scrolling. In BD (and perhaps the others) you can choose to show Bibles in different views (tabs or windows) and each has their own scroll bar. From what I have heard, but not seen, I believe Xiphos is unique in that you can tie any two verse number based views together (i.e. Bibles and/or Commentaries) and scrolling one will scroll the other so that they show the same material (in so far as is possible).
:::If Xiphos has this, I do not know how to do it :) I've considered adding a feature like this and would like to sometime, but it is not there now.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::I should add that Xiphos does allow parallel scrolling in the same manner as others. Not with commentary (yet).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== GIFs ==

I removed the note about GIF in graphics format support, changing it to JPEG only. I can see no reasonable reason to support GIF in Sword. PNG is far superior at all of the things GIF was previously used for. You can achieve the same or better quality with greater compression using PNG rather than GIF. Also, we don't actually support GIF on BibleCS, though it would take about 10 minutes to add support for it. (None of this has anything to do with the patents that encumbered GIF in the past, since they're all expired.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 00:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:As I noted above, there are already modules using GIF; there may be cases where content is already in GIF, in which case it's perhaps easiest to just leave it that way. If it's trivial to add it, why not just add it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

::To my knowledge, there is only one module using GIFs, and it's not CrossWire content. Material in GIFs can be bulk converted to PNGs. The only officially supported image file format is JPEG (although the first image test module actually consisted of BMPs). I think it's very reasonable to expand that to include PNGs, since they are useful in a variety of circumstances where JPEG is an inferior choice. But I can't see anything that GIF offers that PNG doesn't do better. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there is one argument I can see for (whatever not officially supported) image format - and that is copyright restrictions. Stuff like "distribute at will, but do not change in any form or way". Having said this I have not come across this wrt image formats and would consider a limitation of formats which ensures that all frontends can make equal use of it is a useful thing. What might be worthwhile though - and that goes way beyond this particular comparison page is a test module with every semi-relevant image format under the sun thrown in and then we could map which frontends (and not just the PC/Mac) ones can deal with them. It is clear that Webkit and Xul derrived fronends are pretty limitless in their support, while others might be a lot more restricted. It would be good to know. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Osk, this is a strong statement, even though I agree with it. I think that our "module making" guide should be explicit in stating "Only use jpeg now and after 1.5.12, you can also use png. Using any other kind of image will result in a module that cannot be used in one or more SWORD applications. Submission of a module with other image formats will hinder its acceptance into the CrossWire repository as such images will need to be converted into a supported format."--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 13:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== BpBible and font handling ==
<s>I think there is some serious misunderstanding here - unless I do not understand BpBible or do something seriously wrong. When I run BpBible I can change the fonts used to display material. But I can '''not''' set a font for a specific module - FarTPV with Nazli while ESV with Times new Roman. This is meant with font per module - or All Farsi modules get to use Nazli while all English ones use Sans Serif. The font handling of BpBible does not work when e.g. an Armenian module and a Farsi commentary is open as there is no font handling both languages. So I reverted Ben's contribution here. </s>[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 00:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Are you using 0.4? It does this. [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 00:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::refdoc: file->set fonts--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
<s>.Yes I use 0.4. But using file-setfonts results in all texts on dispolay changing their font. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]</s>
Sorry, my apologies Ben - I had downloaded 0.4 but was using 0.3 on this laptop. I test on a couple of different machines and got mixed up. This is now corrected. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Software & module updates - checking for updates via a proxy server? ==

If your frontend is installed on a computer that accesses the internet via a proxy server, when the application checks for either software updates or module updates, one of the features we should expect is whether this has configurable support for access via a proxy server. Please compare on this. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:For an example of a program that does this nicely, see [http://www.docu-track.com/home/prod_user/PDF-XChange_Tools/pdfx_viewer PDF-XChange Viewer]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think all which use a module manager do this.

Xiphos does not allow specifying a proxy server and I have not seen such a feature in any of the other programs. In linux, Xiphos should pick this up from the environment. On Windows, I do not know what the behavior would be. For Xiphos, I suspect that this would be something that would have to be added to the engine, although I don't know for sure. Perhaps there is an environment variable that curl will pick up. Although we haven't had reports yet, this is something that concerns me. I know from experience that configuring a program to use FTP through one or more firewalls, plus a proxy server is very difficult, particularly when the program doesn't allow setting the proxy manually but expects the environment to handle it. So in summary, no not all which use the module manager do this, certainly not Xiphos. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that the first time I ever used GnomeSword, I was behind a proxy (this was in linux, of course). I don't believe I ever got it working properly.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I just realized that BibleDesktop does allow specifying a proxy server. I believe this was why I first used BD rather than one of the other frontends. Kudos, DM --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]], thank you. The other thing that we do is http rather than ftp. Many firewalls block ftp but not http. (We still have the old ftp code lying around, but it was being blocked by XP SP2) So when we added http we also added proxy.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 04:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Friendly dates? ==

What is meant by friendly dates? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
:23 of February instead of 02.23 [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:Also it should be in the user's language.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Footnote expansion ==

The reported "1221 character limit" in BibleCS footnotes is an issue somewhat--and there's a fairly simple fix that we put out in some test builds back when the NET was being encoded. But it should be borne in mind that the NET, as encoded, is not official CrossWire content and warnings were given at the time it was produced about long footnotes. It's not clear to me that this is really a failing in BibleCS, rather that the NET is badly encoded (and I know others have the same opinion, if for other reasons, such as bad character encoding). So, ability to display improperly long footnotes should be fixed in BibleCS, but the single case where this arises as a problem should also be repaired. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 19:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

::This problem is not just for the NET. I have seen other things truncated, such as Strong's entries. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 21:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay... I spent a couple minutes testing this and can explain the behavior. There is no "1221 character limit". Firstly, there's no set character limit, there's actually a size limit, which depends on the text itself unless you use a monospaced font and which depends on the font size you use itself. Almost all notes, Strong's entries, etc. will display fine, assuming you don't increase the font size. But I have verified that Eccl 1.1 note 1, the longest note in NET according to Karl, does still get truncated. So I still think BibleCS should apply the NOTES commentary virtual module that we tested briefly. And I still think the NET is poorly encoded. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::one of the first things I do is increase the font size. You're saying that it shouldn't be considered a bug if you can read it without increasing the font size. This is fairly horrible program design in my opinion. It is surely something I would want to know as a user. Again, I haven't actually tried the NET, I saw this with other notes. See, for example, http://picasaweb.google.com/ransom1982/Gnomesword#5277582407118819138. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::: No, I didn't say it wasn't a bug. The report was erroneous. I have corrected it. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 11:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::: Except that I wouldn't consider 15 lines extremely long. Perhaps it should say something about depending on the font size. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 16:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::So I tried it at my preferred font size of 14pt. It truncates after about 15 lines, which happens fairly frequently for the NETfree I was testing, and for strong's references routinely for another module I have. This module is not using the default strong's but one with somewhat longer definitions (privately created). In addition, with NETfree, many of the Greek words were unreadable in the footnotes. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::::If the module is shipped with a default font that has inadequate precomposed Greek coverage (or with no default font at all when the user has his default font set to one with inadequate Greek coverage), then, yes, Greek obviously won't show up correctly. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 11:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::::Actually, this isn't obvious at all. The program should either use Window's normal font fallback methods or provide its own. Windows by default has excellent fallback mechanisms so if any font on the system has the symbol, Windows will substitute that font. Xiphos is dependent on Pango which has chosen to ignore the Window's methods for this and instead provides another fallback mechanism. It isn't as reliable (imo), however, it will certainly allow multiple fonts to be used in a single text to fulfill all of the symbols needed. So if BibleCS can't do this at all (and it can't as far as I can tell) that's another serious limitation. There are relatively few fonts with good enough coverage on their own to cover multiple languages in the same text, so fallback mechanisms are essential. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 16:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

: Well--my bad for having implemented this and then deleted or lost it, but I dug through the mailing list archives for the discussion of virtual modules and think it should be fairly easy to re-create the NOTES commentary virtual module. Some further discussion of this and other virtual modules here: [[Whiteboard/Virtual_Modules]]. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

== Poetry Indentation levels ==

Probably 1 level or 2 level does not accurately describe what is being referred to here. BPB has poetry support for the ESV to match the printed version. This requires indenting on more than just the first line (which is what Xiphos does). See http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=psalm+1&src=esv.org for a comparison. Also search the sword-devel archives for this "Poetry and indented lines".

: The ESV SWORD module does not mark up 2 level poetry using standard OSIS. OSIS does not support such a notion. When I created the OSIS for the ESV, I preserved the markup in the original file using types. So there are <l> elements with type="x-br". This is entirely an invention of mine. It is not reasonable to have any x-types that I make up for a particular module as being meaningful. That is, I don't think any frontend should look for x-br on a <l> element and do something different. If we update the module, this may change. If we discuss it and then document the behavior in [[OSIS Bibles]] that would be fine.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 19:58, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:: This looks like an appropriate response to the email I referenced above, which got no replies. Perhaps you should reply to it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:16, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
::: I'd be glad to, but I'm not sure which one you are referring to. Would you mind giving date and subject? Thanks.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 22:53, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::::As above, subject is "Poetry and indented lines", date is 11/04/08. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-08T20:16:58Z

Mwtalbert: /* Poetry Indentation levels */

== Project Links ==
For the front end links, we need to choose either links to homepages or links to wiki pages, not both. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

== Localization ==
I would recommend not listing that front ends can be localized. I don't think that actually matters to any users. What is important, and hence what we should list, is the existing list of UI localizations for each front end. (Ability to display RtoL text is a separate issue, independent of UI localization, so I think that's fine to keep.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

:The original intention of each entry in the table was/is that it gets removed if a feature is present in all frontends. This one means little to end users , but it means something to translators and developers. If we can find out whether SwordBible can get translated easily then all are localisable and the feature should be listed above the table.

Does localization extend to using different numerals for chapter & verse navigation & verse markers ? Or do some Frontends retain digits 0...9 even when everything else is localized? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think BD is the only one that does bi-directional number shaping. That is the user can type in localized digits and BD will shape it into 0-9 (if not already as such). And when displaying it transforms from 0-9 into the user's localized representation, if different. We only do this for user input and program generated numbers. We don't do it for numbers that are explicitly in the text. IMHO, text should be displayed as is. (For ICU's Javadoc on it see: http://icu-project.org/apiref/icu4j/com/ibm/icu/text/ArabicShaping.html).--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

::Here is [http://www.code2000.net/numbersutf.htm A Table of Numbers] in various scripts from Arabic to Tibetan (and more). [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

== Archiving ==
"Archiving" means what? Removal to another location? Compression? Consider whether this is a feature that is actually important to users in their process of making a decision between front ends--not just an attempt at one-upping. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 01:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Osk - if you mistook this table as one-upmanship then you are badly mistaken. I tried to unravel the narrative everyone seems to give about their frontend. Archiving is GS tem for keeping modules out of sight but available. It does what it says on the tin. BT has (I think) a different solution to the same concern. The tables are quite obviously increasingly not anymore for first time users, but that is quite irrelevant. We can always finally extract the core points for a message to users, but there are other uses for these tables possible too - for developers, for translators - where to concentrate effort etc [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Xiphos's concept of archiving is different than what is explained here. It does not actually 'hide' the module; it will still be available after archiving. Archiving zips up the module (preserving correct paths) so that it can be easily transferred to another machine. This is handy for user-created modules if you want to share them with someone else, and will probably be an integral part of future plans to allow uploading modules. Also, you can archive a module, then remove it (which would also affect other apps). Xiphos provides no way for 'hiding' without complete removal (although it probably should). However, the archiving feature is unique and provides benefit to end users. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Complex Scripts ==
What does "Complex Scripts" mean in this context? When people talk about complex scripts, they're not generally talking about basic things like Arabic shaping. They generally mean things like contextual shaping of Indic or rising baseline Arabic calligraphy. And this feature could have differing values for a single front end, depending on the platform. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think originally Peter meant support for Myanmar which BibleCS lacks. I take issue with the notation (with Uniscribe) because I *have* Uniscribe, and have told BibleCS to use a font that I *know* has the correct symbols, yet BibleCS can still not display the text. --[[User:mwtalbert|mwtalbert]]
::: This is a bad misunderstanding or misquote. I never singled out BibleCS in this matter. All frontends failed BurJudson, some worse some less bad. The level of support can clearly not always get answered with simply yes/no. But as such it is an important matter - as some frontends are constitutionally incapable of rendereing such scripts and others require additional work (which is fine if it works) [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 23:04, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::So, should we change the category "Complex Scripts" to "BurJudson works"? I could release a module (assuming I could get permission, that is) that would universally fail because none of the existing front ends can support its writing system. Would we then mark all front ends as not supporting complex scripts?
::The notation about Uniscribe is more descriptive than a "yes" or "no", since the best possible result any front end can report is support of ''some'' complex scripts. Unless I'm simply mistaken (which is certainly possible) and BibleCS's RTF control doesn't actually use Uniscribe, the failure to correctly render BurJudson is simply indicative of Uniscribe not completely supporting that script yet. (I will investigate whether I'm wrong about Uniscribe.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 20:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

If you could explain how you managed to get BibleCS to do anything more than display little boxes for the text in BurJudson, I'd be interested in knowing. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 04:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: I just updated BurJudson to expect [http://scripts.sil.org/Padauk Padauk] by default so following an update or manual font change it should work for you, but prior to that it had required the [http://www.thanlwinsoft.org/ThanLwinSoft/Downloads/Fonts/PadaukOT-2.1.exe PadaukOT font]. The latter has since been discontinued since SIL added OT tables to their font. If you have another Unicode font with Myanmar support, you will have to set it either in the .conf directly or via the module preferences panel. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I expected that when I changed all the Bible texts to use Padauk it would attempt to use that for BurJudson. Apparently it doesn't work that way. I changed the .conf to use Paduak instead of PadaukOT and it works now (at least to the point of showing the characters, I didn't check specific rendering issues).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

It should probably be mentioned, since BurJudson is being taken as indicative of complex script rendering capability, that Myanmar text is probably the least likely to exhibit correct rendering of any script. Myanmar was first added to Unicode at version 4.0 in 2003. Apparently no one liked the encoding model, so it was radically changed in Unicode 5.1 (released last April). As a result documents may not be updated to Unicode 5.1 encoding (I doubt BurJudson has been)--although many fonts have already been updated to Unicode 5.1's Myanmar encoding model (Padauk and PadaukOT both are). Furthermore, text layout engines may or may not be updated. (I would guess that Graphite has been updated, but the latest Uniscribe has not.) So it would be reasonable to expect a bit of chaos within the world of Myanmar text for the next couple years. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: Fair point. Do we have any other module which tests well the same concepts? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:: I'm (slowly) working on a script demo module, which will include an entry for each script identified in [http://unicode.org/iso15924/iso15924-codes.html ISO 15924]. I had intended it for testing transliteration facilities, but we can also use it to test rendering in general. More immediately, the UDHR module contains texts in many languages, using many scripts, a good portion of them complex (though about 80% of the entries are probably either Latin or Cyrillic). Notably, UDHR contains the same Myanmar text encoded using the Unicode 4.0 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 5)) and the Unicode 5.1 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 6)). --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 10:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I also think the column should go into module support next to the RtoL support - I will do this later today. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Image GenBook support ==
Users do not know what GenBook means. Are images really unsupported in any kind of module type? --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:There is a bug in Bible Desktop, that has been fixed in SVN, that did not properly determine the proper display a Dictionary (LD) with images that is also marked Category=Maps. BD/JSword support all image types that Java can render. I don't know what that is, but at least it includes all the types that we would use in a module.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

== Image Formats / other Image Module support ==
These are not things that an end-user cares about. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
: I agree. I think this can be generalized to a bigger issue. Karl has a wonderful repository of non-official, very useful modules. These may show problems in end-user applications. For example, if his map modules have png images, then there is some front-end that does not support it. The user cares about available modules working or not working.
: I already mentioned the Bible Desktop bug regarding LD image modules marked as Maps. While I routinely test JSword/BD against all CrossWire modules, I don't against Karl's repository. Given it's visibility and value, I think I should.
: The bigger question is how do we note short-comings/bugs in a particular application? I don't think this is the appropriate venue. (Though I don't mind JSword being called out as lagging SWORD.)--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I have to run to church right now, but as soon as I get a chance, I'm going to nuke the whole Images category down to a single, uninformative "Supports Images" column, universally marked with "yes". --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

What was this, Osk? I have restored the section and would appreciate if it stays up. This section has meaning and is reflected in existing modules [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

To be clear this is not about bugs but about frontend limitations - so once it is clear that all frontends can actually deal with all module types then the point simply gets deleted and amalgamated in the "all frontends do xyz" list. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:All front ends support basically the same set of features, with respect to images, in either their current release or in SVN. And these are not end-user concerns, they are developer concerns. Users don't know which format module images use or which kind of module they will appear in, they simply expect content they download to work. So this whole section is completely unnecessary to users. Front end developers don't need it either, since all limitations have already been worked around (namely, the SVN versions of all front ends should now support JPEG & PNG images in all module types). (I don't consider other formats necessary, so we won't ever release content that uses other image formats.) The particulars of which versions of various front ends support which formats & which module types may be useful to content developers, but I can advise them of that during the submission process, and this need not be included as part of a feature matrix aimed at end users. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Do they? If all frontends (at current svn level) can have all module types laced with images this column will obviously go the same way as any other column which is all round "yes". Wrt image formats - svg is the one notable format which brings enormous benefits (due to its translatability) , so svg support is something which is valuable. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

There are already modules that have images in gif format, so I think it should be listed. Not sure why it should *never* be supported. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

This is slightly off-topic, and perhaps it should be reported elsewhere, but I've just confirmed that BibleCS has '''NO''' image support if the images aren't in modules under the BibleCS installation directory. I have SWORD_PATH set to M:/Sword (shared network drive), and none of my image modules were working. I finally added the mods.d folder back (BibleCS then ignores SWORD_PATH), installed an image module with the InstallManager, which then worked (after a restart, of course). This is a fairly serious bug (at least it would be for me, as installing modules under the BibleCS installation directory is not an option). --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 10:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

== Study Notes ==
What are study notes in the tagging section? [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 09:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:Study notes are simply a text editor type note taking facility which then can get exported - e.g. for sermon preparation. This could have gone just as well to '''other''', or where ever, but in the end it is often the final result of a search and bookmarking exercise that you go and write something up which tyou then print and take somewhere else. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 22:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::Personal study notes in a multi-user OS may be ''global'' (all users see them) or ''individual'' (current user sees only his/her own). Could we include a table row that shows which applies? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== BibleCS Portability ==
BibleCS is not properly portable. For once I'm not even applying the stringent PortableApps.com "stealth" requirements. It depends on some libraries (which they are escapes me) and controls which may not be installed on the local user's machine. Also, it leaves stuff all over the place in the registry, and registers itself and so on in a way which leaves orphaned entries in the registry in a most horrible way. What I really complain about though is the fact that on some computers, it won't even just be "Just Works™". For reference on some issues, see [http://portableapps.com/node/10582 this thread] on PortableApps.com. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 10:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:I have just read the thread and I don't think it applies. BibleCS is properly portable wrt to the registry, but it takes some work. First, one has to install it to the default location, which uses the registry. Then one copies c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to a thumb drive. Then it is un-installed from the local machine. This is a one time operation. Second, the user has to use the built-in module installer and not the windows modules downloaded from CrossWire in Windows format. The latter uses the registry. Is it this specific path that prevents the "Just Works". It would be simple enough to zip the contents of that directory and make it available as a portable download. Would that qualify as "Just Works"?
:As to the library problem, if you can recall them that would be great. This it the first I have heard of this.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::It registers all sorts of messy things... in my books, that ruins it, but it still Just Works™. See my comment a bit lower down as to the rest. Absolute paths can be a big problem though. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:You can't recall which libraries it requires because it doesn't. Everything needed by BibleCS is contained within its directory. It writes a few registry entries, but does not need them for its own functioning (only for private protocol calls). And those registry entries really could be deleted upon exit, if desired. So if you move BibleCS around to computers other than that to which it was installed, it will work perfectly fine. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::Got a feeling it was the rich text component or something. The protocol and executable registration is a nuisance as well, and I'd need to test whether it was really dependant on these - if so, it's unlikely to run as a limited user on a new machine. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

FWIW I consider this discussion a bit beside the point. If something runs off a USB drive it is portable in all practical sense. If it leaves a little bit of bit-garbage behind then it is still ''portable'', but not ''securely portable'' in the sense that no one will ever know you used it there - but that is a second matter. If the reason that you do not want to leave anything behind is indeed your physical or job security then even portable apps has a massive problem - and that is teh fact that USB drives get logged by Windows - at least if you do a half decent set-up. The only way to securely (in that particular sense) deploy an application is by running it off a bootable CD. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 08:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to get involved in this discussion, as it doesn't matter to me at all. However, I just uninstalled BibleCS from my Windows 7 computer, and it left icudt38.dll, InstallManager.exe, and userprefs.conf in the installation directory. Perhaps something is wrong in the uninstaller? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:small addition. I could not find any registry keys left behind. Also, I performed the uninstall on XP, and it left the same files behind, although the installer briefly flashed that it was uninstalling InstallManager.exe. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 05:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

::My opinion as the original author of the installer: The uninstaller leaving modules and application generated content is not a bug. But leaving icudt38.dll and InstallManager.exe is. Conceptually the installer installs two parts: BibleCS specific parts (the executables and their dlls) and shareable parts (i.e. locales.d, the modules and other things that all SWORD apps can use). I think it should have an option regarding the shareable parts. It probably should put these elsewhere and not in "The SWORD Project" directory.

:::My personal opinion is that leaving anything at all under Program Files is a bug. As a user, I would expect to be able to delete that and not delete my personal preferences as I would expect them to be stored with all my other application preferences. That's beside the point here. If it helps any, I did choose to leave the shared parts during both uninstalls. Perhaps InstallManager.exe and icudt38.dll got put in the wrong place in the uninstall script?--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll try again. [[User:Osk|Osk]] reverted my correction last time I did it. BibleCS, when run from a USB disk, '''will''' leave stuff behind; for starters (I haven't done a full scan, but these are the ones I remember and found):

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\sword.exe (put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\SharedDLLs\[install path]\sword.exe (not sure, probably put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\sword (sword:// protocol, put in by BibleCS, not sure if BibleCS depends on it)

If any of these are created by BibleCS if they are not there, which they are, then it '''does''' leave traces on the host machine.

Perhaps we could also say "don't use the Install Manager", as I understand it just plain doesn't work (it was the main reason Kevin Porter abandoned The SWORD Project for Windows Portable). At least, though, can we remove the word "no" in "leaves no traces on host machine" once more? [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

: No, actually, no I didn't. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 15:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:: It was me who changed this. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:Chris, did you find these keys on a computer that did not have them after running sword.exe or InstallManager.exe from the USB drive? I find that hard to believe. My experience, if you use the installer to install it to a USB device, it will leave traces on the computer on which you did the install. But if you install it temporarily to a computer and copy c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to the USB drive and then use that USB drive on a different computer, it should not change the registry of that machine. AFAIR, it is the installer that puts these keys into the registry, not the program. AFAIR, the InstallManager.exe does not change the registry, either. This program will use the mods.d and modules folder in the same directory to write it's modules.

:: In the thread last year "[GnomeSword-developers] win32 installer for testing", Chris Little said: "I'm not sure whether you're setting the private protocol handler in the installer or in the GS app, but you should be aware that BibleCS sets the handler to call itself every time it is launched. (It also sets the private protocol handler used by Logos iff it is not already set.)". So just based on that I would say it does set registry entries on startup, not on install. Not sure about installmanager, though [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 02:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll put together a PortableApps version of BibleCS this weekend so that we can put the whole issue to rest. No need to continue debating, but continue if it makes you happy. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Windowing and Text Display ==

I have taken out the Complex Scripts bit and shoved into Module support - it belongs more into that category. The narrative for windows display I think is best expressed in an adequate screenshot. The relevant principles which can be answerd with yes/no are - so far, I think, please add
# Un/linkable texts - e.g Commentary and Bible or several Bibles (both needs to be present - linking and unlinking)
# Parallel display of whole passages in a side by side fashion,
# the ability to hide unneeded Windows/screen areas.
# The ability to have several texts of a kind open at different books/chapters and being able to switch forward and backward
# Unconnected passages on one tab/window

A fair number of BD's list of Others is conceptually also an expression of verse lists

[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

What exactly is meant by poetry display here? Xiphos does display poetry with the correct line breaks and indentation (as in the module, but not exactly as the printed ESV as BPB does)--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Installer ==
Refdoc, I see that you have that BibleCS's installer sorts modules by language. I don't see that. I see it by type only.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
:Have I? mistake. This layout of the table is much better, but i still get confused occasionally. Please do check. Thanks [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] Sorted. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

==Soon?==

I really do not like "soon" as an entry. What is the cut off point for soon? I'd rather that things are yes/no/partial/not applicable and once something is implemented it will change to yes. Otherwise we will have a totally meaningless table. My honest/humble opinion. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 13:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I had a second look at what you marked as soon and I think this is actually fair enough - but I remarked it as partial. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 14:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I think soon or planned are fine categories, but it needs to have specific meaning. To me "soon" means that the capability is in beta and is generally available for testing. Perhaps, "beta" would be better than "soon" and it would have a link to the beta. To me "planned" means that the feature has been checked into source code control and will be part of the next release. Right now we have "yes" with footnotes stating this or that will be available with 1.5.12. Perhaps, "ready" would be better than "planned".--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Indexed Search ==

We have listed the technology, but what are the practical differences? Do all applications index on the same fields? Presumably yes, in which case the technology should be come an internal like other toolkits used. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 16:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The practical outworkings of above technological differences could/should form simply new rows - like crossboundary searches etc.[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

I agree with the new rows. Not sure what they should be.

Compared to SWORD (with key, body and strong), JSword indexes these and additional fields, allowing:
* note:(Abraham) - Find verses with notes about Abraham
* xref:(John 3:16) - Find verses with cross-references to John 3:16. (JSword will normalize the reference to an OSIS ID.)
* heading:(Moses) - Find verses with headings containing Moses.
JSword indexes also allow stemmed searches. It also has different analyzers for different languages. Our Thai analyzer, is necessary to get the word breaks correctly.

The other thing that a search engine bring is a search syntax. Each is different. CLucene and Lucene have the same syntax. I presume BPBible and MacSword have a different one.

Even with Lucene and CLucene, there are differences. JSword can use a SWORD index, but SWORD can't use a JSword index. The reason is that JSword is using Lucene 2.x and Clucene is compatible with 1.4.x. These have different storage formats. CLucene will never catch up with Lucene. We moved away from 1.4.x for outrageous performance gains.

The other thing that JSword has (and I think some others do) is passage restricted searching. This is layered on top of the search engine. If there is a different engine being used by an app, this feature might not be there.

That an app uses Lucene/CLucene/Apple Search/Custom is not a user concern, but it's impact is. One impact of MacSword using Apple's search is that it is available to Spotlight, the global search of the Mac. This is awesome!
--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 18:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Which make sme think whether at least Linux applications could not do the same - beagle etc. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 18:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

In addition to this, BibleTime also indexes several fields that Xiphos and SPW do not. I believe they include the fields that JSword indexes. This is an important distinction, and one where the official Sword indexing is lagging behind these others (at least as regards fields indexed, but it's a definite negative imo) As far as I know, only Xiphos and SPW are using the official Sword indexing --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==

The second table under this heading should be transposed, and should use abbreviations for the frontend applications. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:No. It is the source table for the first table it is the last table not completely imported into the vertical format. Once completely imported it will get deleted. Reason for the delay being thet I a) had no time for it yet and b) there are some things which do not add up in my testing [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 19:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

== Do any frontends or modules also install fonts? ==

Another question to ask of each application is, "Do any frontends or modules also install fonts?". [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::none do as far as I am aware [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:::The Xiphos Windows installer does install fonts --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if this is what was meant. More rather would/could the programme chase up needed fonts and download them. Or did I misunderstand you David? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

The program FlashCards (Greek/Hebrew learning tool) will load a font without installing them to the local OS. Not installing them locally is important for PortableApps' "leave no trace." I've thought of adding this capability to JSword and distribute some SIL fonts with it. It would be cool to be able to specify by URL some fonts to download. My thought it that we would host a open source fonts on the CrossWire server and serve them as we do modules and a new conf's entry FontSource would provide that URL.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Display of information about the source text? ==

Frontends differ in the amount of information they display about the source text for each module, and on how they manage this. This too needs a comparison chart. It's especially important for textual provenance and copyright status, etc. It is a chore to always have to refer to the CrossWire downloads page. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
:Among the frontends with which I am familiar, BD does this very nicely. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Syncrhonized scrolling? ==

Do all frontends that support parallel texts also provide an optional setting for synchronized vertical scrolling? If not, please compare. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::do any? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
::BD, MS, SPW, (others?) show their parallel Bibles in the same pane with a single scroll bar. BD also allows for commentaries to be shown in parallel view. So all of these have synchronized vertical scrolling. In BD (and perhaps the others) you can choose to show Bibles in different views (tabs or windows) and each has their own scroll bar. From what I have heard, but not seen, I believe Xiphos is unique in that you can tie any two verse number based views together (i.e. Bibles and/or Commentaries) and scrolling one will scroll the other so that they show the same material (in so far as is possible).
:::If Xiphos has this, I do not know how to do it :) I've considered adding a feature like this and would like to sometime, but it is not there now.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::I should add that Xiphos does allow parallel scrolling in the same manner as others. Not with commentary (yet).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== GIFs ==

I removed the note about GIF in graphics format support, changing it to JPEG only. I can see no reasonable reason to support GIF in Sword. PNG is far superior at all of the things GIF was previously used for. You can achieve the same or better quality with greater compression using PNG rather than GIF. Also, we don't actually support GIF on BibleCS, though it would take about 10 minutes to add support for it. (None of this has anything to do with the patents that encumbered GIF in the past, since they're all expired.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 00:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:As I noted above, there are already modules using GIF; there may be cases where content is already in GIF, in which case it's perhaps easiest to just leave it that way. If it's trivial to add it, why not just add it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

::To my knowledge, there is only one module using GIFs, and it's not CrossWire content. Material in GIFs can be bulk converted to PNGs. The only officially supported image file format is JPEG (although the first image test module actually consisted of BMPs). I think it's very reasonable to expand that to include PNGs, since they are useful in a variety of circumstances where JPEG is an inferior choice. But I can't see anything that GIF offers that PNG doesn't do better. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there is one argument I can see for (whatever not officially supported) image format - and that is copyright restrictions. Stuff like "distribute at will, but do not change in any form or way". Having said this I have not come across this wrt image formats and would consider a limitation of formats which ensures that all frontends can make equal use of it is a useful thing. What might be worthwhile though - and that goes way beyond this particular comparison page is a test module with every semi-relevant image format under the sun thrown in and then we could map which frontends (and not just the PC/Mac) ones can deal with them. It is clear that Webkit and Xul derrived fronends are pretty limitless in their support, while others might be a lot more restricted. It would be good to know. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Osk, this is a strong statement, even though I agree with it. I think that our "module making" guide should be explicit in stating "Only use jpeg now and after 1.5.12, you can also use png. Using any other kind of image will result in a module that cannot be used in one or more SWORD applications. Submission of a module with other image formats will hinder its acceptance into the CrossWire repository as such images will need to be converted into a supported format."--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 13:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== BpBible and font handling ==
<s>I think there is some serious misunderstanding here - unless I do not understand BpBible or do something seriously wrong. When I run BpBible I can change the fonts used to display material. But I can '''not''' set a font for a specific module - FarTPV with Nazli while ESV with Times new Roman. This is meant with font per module - or All Farsi modules get to use Nazli while all English ones use Sans Serif. The font handling of BpBible does not work when e.g. an Armenian module and a Farsi commentary is open as there is no font handling both languages. So I reverted Ben's contribution here. </s>[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 00:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Are you using 0.4? It does this. [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 00:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::refdoc: file->set fonts--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
<s>.Yes I use 0.4. But using file-setfonts results in all texts on dispolay changing their font. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]</s>
Sorry, my apologies Ben - I had downloaded 0.4 but was using 0.3 on this laptop. I test on a couple of different machines and got mixed up. This is now corrected. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Software & module updates - checking for updates via a proxy server? ==

If your frontend is installed on a computer that accesses the internet via a proxy server, when the application checks for either software updates or module updates, one of the features we should expect is whether this has configurable support for access via a proxy server. Please compare on this. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:For an example of a program that does this nicely, see [http://www.docu-track.com/home/prod_user/PDF-XChange_Tools/pdfx_viewer PDF-XChange Viewer]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think all which use a module manager do this.

Xiphos does not allow specifying a proxy server and I have not seen such a feature in any of the other programs. In linux, Xiphos should pick this up from the environment. On Windows, I do not know what the behavior would be. For Xiphos, I suspect that this would be something that would have to be added to the engine, although I don't know for sure. Perhaps there is an environment variable that curl will pick up. Although we haven't had reports yet, this is something that concerns me. I know from experience that configuring a program to use FTP through one or more firewalls, plus a proxy server is very difficult, particularly when the program doesn't allow setting the proxy manually but expects the environment to handle it. So in summary, no not all which use the module manager do this, certainly not Xiphos. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that the first time I ever used GnomeSword, I was behind a proxy (this was in linux, of course). I don't believe I ever got it working properly.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I just realized that BibleDesktop does allow specifying a proxy server. I believe this was why I first used BD rather than one of the other frontends. Kudos, DM --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]], thank you. The other thing that we do is http rather than ftp. Many firewalls block ftp but not http. (We still have the old ftp code lying around, but it was being blocked by XP SP2) So when we added http we also added proxy.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 04:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Friendly dates? ==

What is meant by friendly dates? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
:23 of February instead of 02.23 [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:Also it should be in the user's language.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Footnote expansion ==

The reported "1221 character limit" in BibleCS footnotes is an issue somewhat--and there's a fairly simple fix that we put out in some test builds back when the NET was being encoded. But it should be borne in mind that the NET, as encoded, is not official CrossWire content and warnings were given at the time it was produced about long footnotes. It's not clear to me that this is really a failing in BibleCS, rather that the NET is badly encoded (and I know others have the same opinion, if for other reasons, such as bad character encoding). So, ability to display improperly long footnotes should be fixed in BibleCS, but the single case where this arises as a problem should also be repaired. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 19:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

::This problem is not just for the NET. I have seen other things truncated, such as Strong's entries. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 21:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay... I spent a couple minutes testing this and can explain the behavior. There is no "1221 character limit". Firstly, there's no set character limit, there's actually a size limit, which depends on the text itself unless you use a monospaced font and which depends on the font size you use itself. Almost all notes, Strong's entries, etc. will display fine, assuming you don't increase the font size. But I have verified that Eccl 1.1 note 1, the longest note in NET according to Karl, does still get truncated. So I still think BibleCS should apply the NOTES commentary virtual module that we tested briefly. And I still think the NET is poorly encoded. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::one of the first things I do is increase the font size. You're saying that it shouldn't be considered a bug if you can read it without increasing the font size. This is fairly horrible program design in my opinion. It is surely something I would want to know as a user. Again, I haven't actually tried the NET, I saw this with other notes. See, for example, http://picasaweb.google.com/ransom1982/Gnomesword#5277582407118819138. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::: No, I didn't say it wasn't a bug. The report was erroneous. I have corrected it. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 11:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::: Except that I wouldn't consider 15 lines extremely long. Perhaps it should say something about depending on the font size. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 16:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::So I tried it at my preferred font size of 14pt. It truncates after about 15 lines, which happens fairly frequently for the NETfree I was testing, and for strong's references routinely for another module I have. This module is not using the default strong's but one with somewhat longer definitions (privately created). In addition, with NETfree, many of the Greek words were unreadable in the footnotes. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::::If the module is shipped with a default font that has inadequate precomposed Greek coverage (or with no default font at all when the user has his default font set to one with inadequate Greek coverage), then, yes, Greek obviously won't show up correctly. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 11:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::::Actually, this isn't obvious at all. The program should either use Window's normal font fallback methods or provide its own. Windows by default has excellent fallback mechanisms so if any font on the system has the symbol, Windows will substitute that font. Xiphos is dependent on Pango which has chosen to ignore the Window's methods for this and instead provides another fallback mechanism. It isn't as reliable (imo), however, it will certainly allow multiple fonts to be used in a single text to fulfill all of the symbols needed. So if BibleCS can't do this at all (and it can't as far as I can tell) that's another serious limitation. There are relatively few fonts with good enough coverage on their own to cover multiple languages in the same text, so fallback mechanisms are essential. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 16:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

: Well--my bad for having implemented this and then deleted or lost it, but I dug through the mailing list archives for the discussion of virtual modules and think it should be fairly easy to re-create the NOTES commentary virtual module. Some further discussion of this and other virtual modules here: [[Whiteboard/Virtual_Modules]]. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

== Poetry Indentation levels ==

Probably 1 level or 2 level does not accurately describe what is being referred to here. BPB has poetry support for the ESV to match the printed version. This requires indenting on more than just the first line (which is what Xiphos does). See http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=psalm+1&src=esv.org for a comparison. Also search the sword-devel archives for this "Poetry and indented lines".

: The ESV SWORD module does not mark up 2 level poetry using standard OSIS. OSIS does not support such a notion. When I created the OSIS for the ESV, I preserved the markup in the original file using types. So there are <l> elements with type="x-br". This is entirely an invention of mine. It is not reasonable to have any x-types that I make up for a particular module as being meaningful. That is, I don't think any frontend should look for x-br on a <l> element and do something different. If we update the module, this may change. If we discuss it and then document the behavior in [[OSIS Bibles]] that would be fine.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 19:58, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:: This looks like an appropriate response to the email I referenced above, which got no replies. Perhaps you should reply to it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:16, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-08T16:43:38Z

Mwtalbert: /* Footnote expansion */ Font fallback

== Project Links ==
For the front end links, we need to choose either links to homepages or links to wiki pages, not both. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

== Localization ==
I would recommend not listing that front ends can be localized. I don't think that actually matters to any users. What is important, and hence what we should list, is the existing list of UI localizations for each front end. (Ability to display RtoL text is a separate issue, independent of UI localization, so I think that's fine to keep.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

:The original intention of each entry in the table was/is that it gets removed if a feature is present in all frontends. This one means little to end users , but it means something to translators and developers. If we can find out whether SwordBible can get translated easily then all are localisable and the feature should be listed above the table.

Does localization extend to using different numerals for chapter & verse navigation & verse markers ? Or do some Frontends retain digits 0...9 even when everything else is localized? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think BD is the only one that does bi-directional number shaping. That is the user can type in localized digits and BD will shape it into 0-9 (if not already as such). And when displaying it transforms from 0-9 into the user's localized representation, if different. We only do this for user input and program generated numbers. We don't do it for numbers that are explicitly in the text. IMHO, text should be displayed as is. (For ICU's Javadoc on it see: http://icu-project.org/apiref/icu4j/com/ibm/icu/text/ArabicShaping.html).--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

::Here is [http://www.code2000.net/numbersutf.htm A Table of Numbers] in various scripts from Arabic to Tibetan (and more). [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

== Archiving ==
"Archiving" means what? Removal to another location? Compression? Consider whether this is a feature that is actually important to users in their process of making a decision between front ends--not just an attempt at one-upping. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 01:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Osk - if you mistook this table as one-upmanship then you are badly mistaken. I tried to unravel the narrative everyone seems to give about their frontend. Archiving is GS tem for keeping modules out of sight but available. It does what it says on the tin. BT has (I think) a different solution to the same concern. The tables are quite obviously increasingly not anymore for first time users, but that is quite irrelevant. We can always finally extract the core points for a message to users, but there are other uses for these tables possible too - for developers, for translators - where to concentrate effort etc [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Xiphos's concept of archiving is different than what is explained here. It does not actually 'hide' the module; it will still be available after archiving. Archiving zips up the module (preserving correct paths) so that it can be easily transferred to another machine. This is handy for user-created modules if you want to share them with someone else, and will probably be an integral part of future plans to allow uploading modules. Also, you can archive a module, then remove it (which would also affect other apps). Xiphos provides no way for 'hiding' without complete removal (although it probably should). However, the archiving feature is unique and provides benefit to end users. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Complex Scripts ==
What does "Complex Scripts" mean in this context? When people talk about complex scripts, they're not generally talking about basic things like Arabic shaping. They generally mean things like contextual shaping of Indic or rising baseline Arabic calligraphy. And this feature could have differing values for a single front end, depending on the platform. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think originally Peter meant support for Myanmar which BibleCS lacks. I take issue with the notation (with Uniscribe) because I *have* Uniscribe, and have told BibleCS to use a font that I *know* has the correct symbols, yet BibleCS can still not display the text. --[[User:mwtalbert|mwtalbert]]
::: This is a bad misunderstanding or misquote. I never singled out BibleCS in this matter. All frontends failed BurJudson, some worse some less bad. The level of support can clearly not always get answered with simply yes/no. But as such it is an important matter - as some frontends are constitutionally incapable of rendereing such scripts and others require additional work (which is fine if it works) [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 23:04, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::So, should we change the category "Complex Scripts" to "BurJudson works"? I could release a module (assuming I could get permission, that is) that would universally fail because none of the existing front ends can support its writing system. Would we then mark all front ends as not supporting complex scripts?
::The notation about Uniscribe is more descriptive than a "yes" or "no", since the best possible result any front end can report is support of ''some'' complex scripts. Unless I'm simply mistaken (which is certainly possible) and BibleCS's RTF control doesn't actually use Uniscribe, the failure to correctly render BurJudson is simply indicative of Uniscribe not completely supporting that script yet. (I will investigate whether I'm wrong about Uniscribe.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 20:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

If you could explain how you managed to get BibleCS to do anything more than display little boxes for the text in BurJudson, I'd be interested in knowing. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 04:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: I just updated BurJudson to expect [http://scripts.sil.org/Padauk Padauk] by default so following an update or manual font change it should work for you, but prior to that it had required the [http://www.thanlwinsoft.org/ThanLwinSoft/Downloads/Fonts/PadaukOT-2.1.exe PadaukOT font]. The latter has since been discontinued since SIL added OT tables to their font. If you have another Unicode font with Myanmar support, you will have to set it either in the .conf directly or via the module preferences panel. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I expected that when I changed all the Bible texts to use Padauk it would attempt to use that for BurJudson. Apparently it doesn't work that way. I changed the .conf to use Paduak instead of PadaukOT and it works now (at least to the point of showing the characters, I didn't check specific rendering issues).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

It should probably be mentioned, since BurJudson is being taken as indicative of complex script rendering capability, that Myanmar text is probably the least likely to exhibit correct rendering of any script. Myanmar was first added to Unicode at version 4.0 in 2003. Apparently no one liked the encoding model, so it was radically changed in Unicode 5.1 (released last April). As a result documents may not be updated to Unicode 5.1 encoding (I doubt BurJudson has been)--although many fonts have already been updated to Unicode 5.1's Myanmar encoding model (Padauk and PadaukOT both are). Furthermore, text layout engines may or may not be updated. (I would guess that Graphite has been updated, but the latest Uniscribe has not.) So it would be reasonable to expect a bit of chaos within the world of Myanmar text for the next couple years. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: Fair point. Do we have any other module which tests well the same concepts? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:: I'm (slowly) working on a script demo module, which will include an entry for each script identified in [http://unicode.org/iso15924/iso15924-codes.html ISO 15924]. I had intended it for testing transliteration facilities, but we can also use it to test rendering in general. More immediately, the UDHR module contains texts in many languages, using many scripts, a good portion of them complex (though about 80% of the entries are probably either Latin or Cyrillic). Notably, UDHR contains the same Myanmar text encoded using the Unicode 4.0 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 5)) and the Unicode 5.1 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 6)). --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 10:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I also think the column should go into module support next to the RtoL support - I will do this later today. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Image GenBook support ==
Users do not know what GenBook means. Are images really unsupported in any kind of module type? --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:There is a bug in Bible Desktop, that has been fixed in SVN, that did not properly determine the proper display a Dictionary (LD) with images that is also marked Category=Maps. BD/JSword support all image types that Java can render. I don't know what that is, but at least it includes all the types that we would use in a module.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

== Image Formats / other Image Module support ==
These are not things that an end-user cares about. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
: I agree. I think this can be generalized to a bigger issue. Karl has a wonderful repository of non-official, very useful modules. These may show problems in end-user applications. For example, if his map modules have png images, then there is some front-end that does not support it. The user cares about available modules working or not working.
: I already mentioned the Bible Desktop bug regarding LD image modules marked as Maps. While I routinely test JSword/BD against all CrossWire modules, I don't against Karl's repository. Given it's visibility and value, I think I should.
: The bigger question is how do we note short-comings/bugs in a particular application? I don't think this is the appropriate venue. (Though I don't mind JSword being called out as lagging SWORD.)--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I have to run to church right now, but as soon as I get a chance, I'm going to nuke the whole Images category down to a single, uninformative "Supports Images" column, universally marked with "yes". --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

What was this, Osk? I have restored the section and would appreciate if it stays up. This section has meaning and is reflected in existing modules [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

To be clear this is not about bugs but about frontend limitations - so once it is clear that all frontends can actually deal with all module types then the point simply gets deleted and amalgamated in the "all frontends do xyz" list. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:All front ends support basically the same set of features, with respect to images, in either their current release or in SVN. And these are not end-user concerns, they are developer concerns. Users don't know which format module images use or which kind of module they will appear in, they simply expect content they download to work. So this whole section is completely unnecessary to users. Front end developers don't need it either, since all limitations have already been worked around (namely, the SVN versions of all front ends should now support JPEG & PNG images in all module types). (I don't consider other formats necessary, so we won't ever release content that uses other image formats.) The particulars of which versions of various front ends support which formats & which module types may be useful to content developers, but I can advise them of that during the submission process, and this need not be included as part of a feature matrix aimed at end users. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Do they? If all frontends (at current svn level) can have all module types laced with images this column will obviously go the same way as any other column which is all round "yes". Wrt image formats - svg is the one notable format which brings enormous benefits (due to its translatability) , so svg support is something which is valuable. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

There are already modules that have images in gif format, so I think it should be listed. Not sure why it should *never* be supported. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

This is slightly off-topic, and perhaps it should be reported elsewhere, but I've just confirmed that BibleCS has '''NO''' image support if the images aren't in modules under the BibleCS installation directory. I have SWORD_PATH set to M:/Sword (shared network drive), and none of my image modules were working. I finally added the mods.d folder back (BibleCS then ignores SWORD_PATH), installed an image module with the InstallManager, which then worked (after a restart, of course). This is a fairly serious bug (at least it would be for me, as installing modules under the BibleCS installation directory is not an option). --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 10:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

== Study Notes ==
What are study notes in the tagging section? [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 09:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:Study notes are simply a text editor type note taking facility which then can get exported - e.g. for sermon preparation. This could have gone just as well to '''other''', or where ever, but in the end it is often the final result of a search and bookmarking exercise that you go and write something up which tyou then print and take somewhere else. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 22:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::Personal study notes in a multi-user OS may be ''global'' (all users see them) or ''individual'' (current user sees only his/her own). Could we include a table row that shows which applies? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== BibleCS Portability ==
BibleCS is not properly portable. For once I'm not even applying the stringent PortableApps.com "stealth" requirements. It depends on some libraries (which they are escapes me) and controls which may not be installed on the local user's machine. Also, it leaves stuff all over the place in the registry, and registers itself and so on in a way which leaves orphaned entries in the registry in a most horrible way. What I really complain about though is the fact that on some computers, it won't even just be "Just Works™". For reference on some issues, see [http://portableapps.com/node/10582 this thread] on PortableApps.com. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 10:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:I have just read the thread and I don't think it applies. BibleCS is properly portable wrt to the registry, but it takes some work. First, one has to install it to the default location, which uses the registry. Then one copies c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to a thumb drive. Then it is un-installed from the local machine. This is a one time operation. Second, the user has to use the built-in module installer and not the windows modules downloaded from CrossWire in Windows format. The latter uses the registry. Is it this specific path that prevents the "Just Works". It would be simple enough to zip the contents of that directory and make it available as a portable download. Would that qualify as "Just Works"?
:As to the library problem, if you can recall them that would be great. This it the first I have heard of this.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::It registers all sorts of messy things... in my books, that ruins it, but it still Just Works™. See my comment a bit lower down as to the rest. Absolute paths can be a big problem though. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:You can't recall which libraries it requires because it doesn't. Everything needed by BibleCS is contained within its directory. It writes a few registry entries, but does not need them for its own functioning (only for private protocol calls). And those registry entries really could be deleted upon exit, if desired. So if you move BibleCS around to computers other than that to which it was installed, it will work perfectly fine. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::Got a feeling it was the rich text component or something. The protocol and executable registration is a nuisance as well, and I'd need to test whether it was really dependant on these - if so, it's unlikely to run as a limited user on a new machine. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

FWIW I consider this discussion a bit beside the point. If something runs off a USB drive it is portable in all practical sense. If it leaves a little bit of bit-garbage behind then it is still ''portable'', but not ''securely portable'' in the sense that no one will ever know you used it there - but that is a second matter. If the reason that you do not want to leave anything behind is indeed your physical or job security then even portable apps has a massive problem - and that is teh fact that USB drives get logged by Windows - at least if you do a half decent set-up. The only way to securely (in that particular sense) deploy an application is by running it off a bootable CD. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 08:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to get involved in this discussion, as it doesn't matter to me at all. However, I just uninstalled BibleCS from my Windows 7 computer, and it left icudt38.dll, InstallManager.exe, and userprefs.conf in the installation directory. Perhaps something is wrong in the uninstaller? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:small addition. I could not find any registry keys left behind. Also, I performed the uninstall on XP, and it left the same files behind, although the installer briefly flashed that it was uninstalling InstallManager.exe. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 05:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

::My opinion as the original author of the installer: The uninstaller leaving modules and application generated content is not a bug. But leaving icudt38.dll and InstallManager.exe is. Conceptually the installer installs two parts: BibleCS specific parts (the executables and their dlls) and shareable parts (i.e. locales.d, the modules and other things that all SWORD apps can use). I think it should have an option regarding the shareable parts. It probably should put these elsewhere and not in "The SWORD Project" directory.

:::My personal opinion is that leaving anything at all under Program Files is a bug. As a user, I would expect to be able to delete that and not delete my personal preferences as I would expect them to be stored with all my other application preferences. That's beside the point here. If it helps any, I did choose to leave the shared parts during both uninstalls. Perhaps InstallManager.exe and icudt38.dll got put in the wrong place in the uninstall script?--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll try again. [[User:Osk|Osk]] reverted my correction last time I did it. BibleCS, when run from a USB disk, '''will''' leave stuff behind; for starters (I haven't done a full scan, but these are the ones I remember and found):

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\sword.exe (put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\SharedDLLs\[install path]\sword.exe (not sure, probably put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\sword (sword:// protocol, put in by BibleCS, not sure if BibleCS depends on it)

If any of these are created by BibleCS if they are not there, which they are, then it '''does''' leave traces on the host machine.

Perhaps we could also say "don't use the Install Manager", as I understand it just plain doesn't work (it was the main reason Kevin Porter abandoned The SWORD Project for Windows Portable). At least, though, can we remove the word "no" in "leaves no traces on host machine" once more? [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

: No, actually, no I didn't. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 15:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:: It was me who changed this. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:Chris, did you find these keys on a computer that did not have them after running sword.exe or InstallManager.exe from the USB drive? I find that hard to believe. My experience, if you use the installer to install it to a USB device, it will leave traces on the computer on which you did the install. But if you install it temporarily to a computer and copy c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to the USB drive and then use that USB drive on a different computer, it should not change the registry of that machine. AFAIR, it is the installer that puts these keys into the registry, not the program. AFAIR, the InstallManager.exe does not change the registry, either. This program will use the mods.d and modules folder in the same directory to write it's modules.

:: In the thread last year "[GnomeSword-developers] win32 installer for testing", Chris Little said: "I'm not sure whether you're setting the private protocol handler in the installer or in the GS app, but you should be aware that BibleCS sets the handler to call itself every time it is launched. (It also sets the private protocol handler used by Logos iff it is not already set.)". So just based on that I would say it does set registry entries on startup, not on install. Not sure about installmanager, though [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 02:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll put together a PortableApps version of BibleCS this weekend so that we can put the whole issue to rest. No need to continue debating, but continue if it makes you happy. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Windowing and Text Display ==

I have taken out the Complex Scripts bit and shoved into Module support - it belongs more into that category. The narrative for windows display I think is best expressed in an adequate screenshot. The relevant principles which can be answerd with yes/no are - so far, I think, please add
# Un/linkable texts - e.g Commentary and Bible or several Bibles (both needs to be present - linking and unlinking)
# Parallel display of whole passages in a side by side fashion,
# the ability to hide unneeded Windows/screen areas.
# The ability to have several texts of a kind open at different books/chapters and being able to switch forward and backward
# Unconnected passages on one tab/window

A fair number of BD's list of Others is conceptually also an expression of verse lists

[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

What exactly is meant by poetry display here? Xiphos does display poetry with the correct line breaks and indentation (as in the module, but not exactly as the printed ESV as BPB does)--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Installer ==
Refdoc, I see that you have that BibleCS's installer sorts modules by language. I don't see that. I see it by type only.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
:Have I? mistake. This layout of the table is much better, but i still get confused occasionally. Please do check. Thanks [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] Sorted. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

==Soon?==

I really do not like "soon" as an entry. What is the cut off point for soon? I'd rather that things are yes/no/partial/not applicable and once something is implemented it will change to yes. Otherwise we will have a totally meaningless table. My honest/humble opinion. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 13:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I had a second look at what you marked as soon and I think this is actually fair enough - but I remarked it as partial. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 14:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I think soon or planned are fine categories, but it needs to have specific meaning. To me "soon" means that the capability is in beta and is generally available for testing. Perhaps, "beta" would be better than "soon" and it would have a link to the beta. To me "planned" means that the feature has been checked into source code control and will be part of the next release. Right now we have "yes" with footnotes stating this or that will be available with 1.5.12. Perhaps, "ready" would be better than "planned".--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Indexed Search ==

We have listed the technology, but what are the practical differences? Do all applications index on the same fields? Presumably yes, in which case the technology should be come an internal like other toolkits used. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 16:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The practical outworkings of above technological differences could/should form simply new rows - like crossboundary searches etc.[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

I agree with the new rows. Not sure what they should be.

Compared to SWORD (with key, body and strong), JSword indexes these and additional fields, allowing:
* note:(Abraham) - Find verses with notes about Abraham
* xref:(John 3:16) - Find verses with cross-references to John 3:16. (JSword will normalize the reference to an OSIS ID.)
* heading:(Moses) - Find verses with headings containing Moses.
JSword indexes also allow stemmed searches. It also has different analyzers for different languages. Our Thai analyzer, is necessary to get the word breaks correctly.

The other thing that a search engine bring is a search syntax. Each is different. CLucene and Lucene have the same syntax. I presume BPBible and MacSword have a different one.

Even with Lucene and CLucene, there are differences. JSword can use a SWORD index, but SWORD can't use a JSword index. The reason is that JSword is using Lucene 2.x and Clucene is compatible with 1.4.x. These have different storage formats. CLucene will never catch up with Lucene. We moved away from 1.4.x for outrageous performance gains.

The other thing that JSword has (and I think some others do) is passage restricted searching. This is layered on top of the search engine. If there is a different engine being used by an app, this feature might not be there.

That an app uses Lucene/CLucene/Apple Search/Custom is not a user concern, but it's impact is. One impact of MacSword using Apple's search is that it is available to Spotlight, the global search of the Mac. This is awesome!
--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 18:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Which make sme think whether at least Linux applications could not do the same - beagle etc. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 18:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

In addition to this, BibleTime also indexes several fields that Xiphos and SPW do not. I believe they include the fields that JSword indexes. This is an important distinction, and one where the official Sword indexing is lagging behind these others (at least as regards fields indexed, but it's a definite negative imo) As far as I know, only Xiphos and SPW are using the official Sword indexing --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==

The second table under this heading should be transposed, and should use abbreviations for the frontend applications. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:No. It is the source table for the first table it is the last table not completely imported into the vertical format. Once completely imported it will get deleted. Reason for the delay being thet I a) had no time for it yet and b) there are some things which do not add up in my testing [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 19:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

== Do any frontends or modules also install fonts? ==

Another question to ask of each application is, "Do any frontends or modules also install fonts?". [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::none do as far as I am aware [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:::The Xiphos Windows installer does install fonts --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if this is what was meant. More rather would/could the programme chase up needed fonts and download them. Or did I misunderstand you David? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

The program FlashCards (Greek/Hebrew learning tool) will load a font without installing them to the local OS. Not installing them locally is important for PortableApps' "leave no trace." I've thought of adding this capability to JSword and distribute some SIL fonts with it. It would be cool to be able to specify by URL some fonts to download. My thought it that we would host a open source fonts on the CrossWire server and serve them as we do modules and a new conf's entry FontSource would provide that URL.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Display of information about the source text? ==

Frontends differ in the amount of information they display about the source text for each module, and on how they manage this. This too needs a comparison chart. It's especially important for textual provenance and copyright status, etc. It is a chore to always have to refer to the CrossWire downloads page. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
:Among the frontends with which I am familiar, BD does this very nicely. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Syncrhonized scrolling? ==

Do all frontends that support parallel texts also provide an optional setting for synchronized vertical scrolling? If not, please compare. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::do any? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
::BD, MS, SPW, (others?) show their parallel Bibles in the same pane with a single scroll bar. BD also allows for commentaries to be shown in parallel view. So all of these have synchronized vertical scrolling. In BD (and perhaps the others) you can choose to show Bibles in different views (tabs or windows) and each has their own scroll bar. From what I have heard, but not seen, I believe Xiphos is unique in that you can tie any two verse number based views together (i.e. Bibles and/or Commentaries) and scrolling one will scroll the other so that they show the same material (in so far as is possible).
:::If Xiphos has this, I do not know how to do it :) I've considered adding a feature like this and would like to sometime, but it is not there now.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::I should add that Xiphos does allow parallel scrolling in the same manner as others. Not with commentary (yet).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== GIFs ==

I removed the note about GIF in graphics format support, changing it to JPEG only. I can see no reasonable reason to support GIF in Sword. PNG is far superior at all of the things GIF was previously used for. You can achieve the same or better quality with greater compression using PNG rather than GIF. Also, we don't actually support GIF on BibleCS, though it would take about 10 minutes to add support for it. (None of this has anything to do with the patents that encumbered GIF in the past, since they're all expired.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 00:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:As I noted above, there are already modules using GIF; there may be cases where content is already in GIF, in which case it's perhaps easiest to just leave it that way. If it's trivial to add it, why not just add it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

::To my knowledge, there is only one module using GIFs, and it's not CrossWire content. Material in GIFs can be bulk converted to PNGs. The only officially supported image file format is JPEG (although the first image test module actually consisted of BMPs). I think it's very reasonable to expand that to include PNGs, since they are useful in a variety of circumstances where JPEG is an inferior choice. But I can't see anything that GIF offers that PNG doesn't do better. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there is one argument I can see for (whatever not officially supported) image format - and that is copyright restrictions. Stuff like "distribute at will, but do not change in any form or way". Having said this I have not come across this wrt image formats and would consider a limitation of formats which ensures that all frontends can make equal use of it is a useful thing. What might be worthwhile though - and that goes way beyond this particular comparison page is a test module with every semi-relevant image format under the sun thrown in and then we could map which frontends (and not just the PC/Mac) ones can deal with them. It is clear that Webkit and Xul derrived fronends are pretty limitless in their support, while others might be a lot more restricted. It would be good to know. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Osk, this is a strong statement, even though I agree with it. I think that our "module making" guide should be explicit in stating "Only use jpeg now and after 1.5.12, you can also use png. Using any other kind of image will result in a module that cannot be used in one or more SWORD applications. Submission of a module with other image formats will hinder its acceptance into the CrossWire repository as such images will need to be converted into a supported format."--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 13:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== BpBible and font handling ==
<s>I think there is some serious misunderstanding here - unless I do not understand BpBible or do something seriously wrong. When I run BpBible I can change the fonts used to display material. But I can '''not''' set a font for a specific module - FarTPV with Nazli while ESV with Times new Roman. This is meant with font per module - or All Farsi modules get to use Nazli while all English ones use Sans Serif. The font handling of BpBible does not work when e.g. an Armenian module and a Farsi commentary is open as there is no font handling both languages. So I reverted Ben's contribution here. </s>[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 00:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Are you using 0.4? It does this. [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 00:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::refdoc: file->set fonts--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
<s>.Yes I use 0.4. But using file-setfonts results in all texts on dispolay changing their font. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]</s>
Sorry, my apologies Ben - I had downloaded 0.4 but was using 0.3 on this laptop. I test on a couple of different machines and got mixed up. This is now corrected. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Software & module updates - checking for updates via a proxy server? ==

If your frontend is installed on a computer that accesses the internet via a proxy server, when the application checks for either software updates or module updates, one of the features we should expect is whether this has configurable support for access via a proxy server. Please compare on this. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:For an example of a program that does this nicely, see [http://www.docu-track.com/home/prod_user/PDF-XChange_Tools/pdfx_viewer PDF-XChange Viewer]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think all which use a module manager do this.

Xiphos does not allow specifying a proxy server and I have not seen such a feature in any of the other programs. In linux, Xiphos should pick this up from the environment. On Windows, I do not know what the behavior would be. For Xiphos, I suspect that this would be something that would have to be added to the engine, although I don't know for sure. Perhaps there is an environment variable that curl will pick up. Although we haven't had reports yet, this is something that concerns me. I know from experience that configuring a program to use FTP through one or more firewalls, plus a proxy server is very difficult, particularly when the program doesn't allow setting the proxy manually but expects the environment to handle it. So in summary, no not all which use the module manager do this, certainly not Xiphos. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that the first time I ever used GnomeSword, I was behind a proxy (this was in linux, of course). I don't believe I ever got it working properly.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I just realized that BibleDesktop does allow specifying a proxy server. I believe this was why I first used BD rather than one of the other frontends. Kudos, DM --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]], thank you. The other thing that we do is http rather than ftp. Many firewalls block ftp but not http. (We still have the old ftp code lying around, but it was being blocked by XP SP2) So when we added http we also added proxy.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 04:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Friendly dates? ==

What is meant by friendly dates? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
:23 of February instead of 02.23 [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:Also it should be in the user's language.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Footnote expansion ==

The reported "1221 character limit" in BibleCS footnotes is an issue somewhat--and there's a fairly simple fix that we put out in some test builds back when the NET was being encoded. But it should be borne in mind that the NET, as encoded, is not official CrossWire content and warnings were given at the time it was produced about long footnotes. It's not clear to me that this is really a failing in BibleCS, rather that the NET is badly encoded (and I know others have the same opinion, if for other reasons, such as bad character encoding). So, ability to display improperly long footnotes should be fixed in BibleCS, but the single case where this arises as a problem should also be repaired. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 19:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

::This problem is not just for the NET. I have seen other things truncated, such as Strong's entries. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 21:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay... I spent a couple minutes testing this and can explain the behavior. There is no "1221 character limit". Firstly, there's no set character limit, there's actually a size limit, which depends on the text itself unless you use a monospaced font and which depends on the font size you use itself. Almost all notes, Strong's entries, etc. will display fine, assuming you don't increase the font size. But I have verified that Eccl 1.1 note 1, the longest note in NET according to Karl, does still get truncated. So I still think BibleCS should apply the NOTES commentary virtual module that we tested briefly. And I still think the NET is poorly encoded. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::one of the first things I do is increase the font size. You're saying that it shouldn't be considered a bug if you can read it without increasing the font size. This is fairly horrible program design in my opinion. It is surely something I would want to know as a user. Again, I haven't actually tried the NET, I saw this with other notes. See, for example, http://picasaweb.google.com/ransom1982/Gnomesword#5277582407118819138. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::: No, I didn't say it wasn't a bug. The report was erroneous. I have corrected it. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 11:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::: Except that I wouldn't consider 15 lines extremely long. Perhaps it should say something about depending on the font size. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 16:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::So I tried it at my preferred font size of 14pt. It truncates after about 15 lines, which happens fairly frequently for the NETfree I was testing, and for strong's references routinely for another module I have. This module is not using the default strong's but one with somewhat longer definitions (privately created). In addition, with NETfree, many of the Greek words were unreadable in the footnotes. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::::If the module is shipped with a default font that has inadequate precomposed Greek coverage (or with no default font at all when the user has his default font set to one with inadequate Greek coverage), then, yes, Greek obviously won't show up correctly. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 11:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::::Actually, this isn't obvious at all. The program should either use Window's normal font fallback methods or provide its own. Windows by default has excellent fallback mechanisms so if any font on the system has the symbol, Windows will substitute that font. Xiphos is dependent on Pango which has chosen to ignore the Window's methods for this and instead provides another fallback mechanism. It isn't as reliable (imo), however, it will certainly allow multiple fonts to be used in a single text to fulfill all of the symbols needed. So if BibleCS can't do this at all (and it can't as far as I can tell) that's another serious limitation. There are relatively few fonts with good enough coverage on their own to cover multiple languages in the same text, so fallback mechanisms are essential. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 16:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

: Well--my bad for having implemented this and then deleted or lost it, but I dug through the mailing list archives for the discussion of virtual modules and think it should be fairly easy to re-create the NOTES commentary virtual module. Some further discussion of this and other virtual modules here: [[Whiteboard/Virtual_Modules]]. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

== Poetry Indentation levels ==

Probably 1 level or 2 level does not accurately describe what is being referred to here. BPB has poetry support for the ESV to match the printed version. This requires indenting on more than just the first line (which is what Xiphos does). See http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=psalm+1&src=esv.org for a comparison. Also search the sword-devel archives for this "Poetry and indented lines".

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-08T10:44:39Z

Mwtalbert: /* Poetry Indentation levels */

== Project Links ==
For the front end links, we need to choose either links to homepages or links to wiki pages, not both. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

== Localization ==
I would recommend not listing that front ends can be localized. I don't think that actually matters to any users. What is important, and hence what we should list, is the existing list of UI localizations for each front end. (Ability to display RtoL text is a separate issue, independent of UI localization, so I think that's fine to keep.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

:The original intention of each entry in the table was/is that it gets removed if a feature is present in all frontends. This one means little to end users , but it means something to translators and developers. If we can find out whether SwordBible can get translated easily then all are localisable and the feature should be listed above the table.

Does localization extend to using different numerals for chapter & verse navigation & verse markers ? Or do some Frontends retain digits 0...9 even when everything else is localized? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think BD is the only one that does bi-directional number shaping. That is the user can type in localized digits and BD will shape it into 0-9 (if not already as such). And when displaying it transforms from 0-9 into the user's localized representation, if different. We only do this for user input and program generated numbers. We don't do it for numbers that are explicitly in the text. IMHO, text should be displayed as is. (For ICU's Javadoc on it see: http://icu-project.org/apiref/icu4j/com/ibm/icu/text/ArabicShaping.html).--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

::Here is [http://www.code2000.net/numbersutf.htm A Table of Numbers] in various scripts from Arabic to Tibetan (and more). [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

== Archiving ==
"Archiving" means what? Removal to another location? Compression? Consider whether this is a feature that is actually important to users in their process of making a decision between front ends--not just an attempt at one-upping. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 01:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Osk - if you mistook this table as one-upmanship then you are badly mistaken. I tried to unravel the narrative everyone seems to give about their frontend. Archiving is GS tem for keeping modules out of sight but available. It does what it says on the tin. BT has (I think) a different solution to the same concern. The tables are quite obviously increasingly not anymore for first time users, but that is quite irrelevant. We can always finally extract the core points for a message to users, but there are other uses for these tables possible too - for developers, for translators - where to concentrate effort etc [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Xiphos's concept of archiving is different than what is explained here. It does not actually 'hide' the module; it will still be available after archiving. Archiving zips up the module (preserving correct paths) so that it can be easily transferred to another machine. This is handy for user-created modules if you want to share them with someone else, and will probably be an integral part of future plans to allow uploading modules. Also, you can archive a module, then remove it (which would also affect other apps). Xiphos provides no way for 'hiding' without complete removal (although it probably should). However, the archiving feature is unique and provides benefit to end users. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Complex Scripts ==
What does "Complex Scripts" mean in this context? When people talk about complex scripts, they're not generally talking about basic things like Arabic shaping. They generally mean things like contextual shaping of Indic or rising baseline Arabic calligraphy. And this feature could have differing values for a single front end, depending on the platform. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think originally Peter meant support for Myanmar which BibleCS lacks. I take issue with the notation (with Uniscribe) because I *have* Uniscribe, and have told BibleCS to use a font that I *know* has the correct symbols, yet BibleCS can still not display the text. --[[User:mwtalbert|mwtalbert]]
::: This is a bad misunderstanding or misquote. I never singled out BibleCS in this matter. All frontends failed BurJudson, some worse some less bad. The level of support can clearly not always get answered with simply yes/no. But as such it is an important matter - as some frontends are constitutionally incapable of rendereing such scripts and others require additional work (which is fine if it works) [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 23:04, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::So, should we change the category "Complex Scripts" to "BurJudson works"? I could release a module (assuming I could get permission, that is) that would universally fail because none of the existing front ends can support its writing system. Would we then mark all front ends as not supporting complex scripts?
::The notation about Uniscribe is more descriptive than a "yes" or "no", since the best possible result any front end can report is support of ''some'' complex scripts. Unless I'm simply mistaken (which is certainly possible) and BibleCS's RTF control doesn't actually use Uniscribe, the failure to correctly render BurJudson is simply indicative of Uniscribe not completely supporting that script yet. (I will investigate whether I'm wrong about Uniscribe.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 20:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

If you could explain how you managed to get BibleCS to do anything more than display little boxes for the text in BurJudson, I'd be interested in knowing. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 04:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: I just updated BurJudson to expect [http://scripts.sil.org/Padauk Padauk] by default so following an update or manual font change it should work for you, but prior to that it had required the [http://www.thanlwinsoft.org/ThanLwinSoft/Downloads/Fonts/PadaukOT-2.1.exe PadaukOT font]. The latter has since been discontinued since SIL added OT tables to their font. If you have another Unicode font with Myanmar support, you will have to set it either in the .conf directly or via the module preferences panel. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I expected that when I changed all the Bible texts to use Padauk it would attempt to use that for BurJudson. Apparently it doesn't work that way. I changed the .conf to use Paduak instead of PadaukOT and it works now (at least to the point of showing the characters, I didn't check specific rendering issues).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

It should probably be mentioned, since BurJudson is being taken as indicative of complex script rendering capability, that Myanmar text is probably the least likely to exhibit correct rendering of any script. Myanmar was first added to Unicode at version 4.0 in 2003. Apparently no one liked the encoding model, so it was radically changed in Unicode 5.1 (released last April). As a result documents may not be updated to Unicode 5.1 encoding (I doubt BurJudson has been)--although many fonts have already been updated to Unicode 5.1's Myanmar encoding model (Padauk and PadaukOT both are). Furthermore, text layout engines may or may not be updated. (I would guess that Graphite has been updated, but the latest Uniscribe has not.) So it would be reasonable to expect a bit of chaos within the world of Myanmar text for the next couple years. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: Fair point. Do we have any other module which tests well the same concepts? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:: I'm (slowly) working on a script demo module, which will include an entry for each script identified in [http://unicode.org/iso15924/iso15924-codes.html ISO 15924]. I had intended it for testing transliteration facilities, but we can also use it to test rendering in general. More immediately, the UDHR module contains texts in many languages, using many scripts, a good portion of them complex (though about 80% of the entries are probably either Latin or Cyrillic). Notably, UDHR contains the same Myanmar text encoded using the Unicode 4.0 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 5)) and the Unicode 5.1 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 6)). --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 10:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I also think the column should go into module support next to the RtoL support - I will do this later today. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Image GenBook support ==
Users do not know what GenBook means. Are images really unsupported in any kind of module type? --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:There is a bug in Bible Desktop, that has been fixed in SVN, that did not properly determine the proper display a Dictionary (LD) with images that is also marked Category=Maps. BD/JSword support all image types that Java can render. I don't know what that is, but at least it includes all the types that we would use in a module.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

== Image Formats / other Image Module support ==
These are not things that an end-user cares about. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
: I agree. I think this can be generalized to a bigger issue. Karl has a wonderful repository of non-official, very useful modules. These may show problems in end-user applications. For example, if his map modules have png images, then there is some front-end that does not support it. The user cares about available modules working or not working.
: I already mentioned the Bible Desktop bug regarding LD image modules marked as Maps. While I routinely test JSword/BD against all CrossWire modules, I don't against Karl's repository. Given it's visibility and value, I think I should.
: The bigger question is how do we note short-comings/bugs in a particular application? I don't think this is the appropriate venue. (Though I don't mind JSword being called out as lagging SWORD.)--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I have to run to church right now, but as soon as I get a chance, I'm going to nuke the whole Images category down to a single, uninformative "Supports Images" column, universally marked with "yes". --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

What was this, Osk? I have restored the section and would appreciate if it stays up. This section has meaning and is reflected in existing modules [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

To be clear this is not about bugs but about frontend limitations - so once it is clear that all frontends can actually deal with all module types then the point simply gets deleted and amalgamated in the "all frontends do xyz" list. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:All front ends support basically the same set of features, with respect to images, in either their current release or in SVN. And these are not end-user concerns, they are developer concerns. Users don't know which format module images use or which kind of module they will appear in, they simply expect content they download to work. So this whole section is completely unnecessary to users. Front end developers don't need it either, since all limitations have already been worked around (namely, the SVN versions of all front ends should now support JPEG & PNG images in all module types). (I don't consider other formats necessary, so we won't ever release content that uses other image formats.) The particulars of which versions of various front ends support which formats & which module types may be useful to content developers, but I can advise them of that during the submission process, and this need not be included as part of a feature matrix aimed at end users. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Do they? If all frontends (at current svn level) can have all module types laced with images this column will obviously go the same way as any other column which is all round "yes". Wrt image formats - svg is the one notable format which brings enormous benefits (due to its translatability) , so svg support is something which is valuable. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

There are already modules that have images in gif format, so I think it should be listed. Not sure why it should *never* be supported. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

This is slightly off-topic, and perhaps it should be reported elsewhere, but I've just confirmed that BibleCS has '''NO''' image support if the images aren't in modules under the BibleCS installation directory. I have SWORD_PATH set to M:/Sword (shared network drive), and none of my image modules were working. I finally added the mods.d folder back (BibleCS then ignores SWORD_PATH), installed an image module with the InstallManager, which then worked (after a restart, of course). This is a fairly serious bug (at least it would be for me, as installing modules under the BibleCS installation directory is not an option). --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 10:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

== Study Notes ==
What are study notes in the tagging section? [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 09:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:Study notes are simply a text editor type note taking facility which then can get exported - e.g. for sermon preparation. This could have gone just as well to '''other''', or where ever, but in the end it is often the final result of a search and bookmarking exercise that you go and write something up which tyou then print and take somewhere else. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 22:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::Personal study notes in a multi-user OS may be ''global'' (all users see them) or ''individual'' (current user sees only his/her own). Could we include a table row that shows which applies? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== BibleCS Portability ==
BibleCS is not properly portable. For once I'm not even applying the stringent PortableApps.com "stealth" requirements. It depends on some libraries (which they are escapes me) and controls which may not be installed on the local user's machine. Also, it leaves stuff all over the place in the registry, and registers itself and so on in a way which leaves orphaned entries in the registry in a most horrible way. What I really complain about though is the fact that on some computers, it won't even just be "Just Works™". For reference on some issues, see [http://portableapps.com/node/10582 this thread] on PortableApps.com. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 10:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:I have just read the thread and I don't think it applies. BibleCS is properly portable wrt to the registry, but it takes some work. First, one has to install it to the default location, which uses the registry. Then one copies c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to a thumb drive. Then it is un-installed from the local machine. This is a one time operation. Second, the user has to use the built-in module installer and not the windows modules downloaded from CrossWire in Windows format. The latter uses the registry. Is it this specific path that prevents the "Just Works". It would be simple enough to zip the contents of that directory and make it available as a portable download. Would that qualify as "Just Works"?
:As to the library problem, if you can recall them that would be great. This it the first I have heard of this.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::It registers all sorts of messy things... in my books, that ruins it, but it still Just Works™. See my comment a bit lower down as to the rest. Absolute paths can be a big problem though. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:You can't recall which libraries it requires because it doesn't. Everything needed by BibleCS is contained within its directory. It writes a few registry entries, but does not need them for its own functioning (only for private protocol calls). And those registry entries really could be deleted upon exit, if desired. So if you move BibleCS around to computers other than that to which it was installed, it will work perfectly fine. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::Got a feeling it was the rich text component or something. The protocol and executable registration is a nuisance as well, and I'd need to test whether it was really dependant on these - if so, it's unlikely to run as a limited user on a new machine. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

FWIW I consider this discussion a bit beside the point. If something runs off a USB drive it is portable in all practical sense. If it leaves a little bit of bit-garbage behind then it is still ''portable'', but not ''securely portable'' in the sense that no one will ever know you used it there - but that is a second matter. If the reason that you do not want to leave anything behind is indeed your physical or job security then even portable apps has a massive problem - and that is teh fact that USB drives get logged by Windows - at least if you do a half decent set-up. The only way to securely (in that particular sense) deploy an application is by running it off a bootable CD. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 08:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to get involved in this discussion, as it doesn't matter to me at all. However, I just uninstalled BibleCS from my Windows 7 computer, and it left icudt38.dll, InstallManager.exe, and userprefs.conf in the installation directory. Perhaps something is wrong in the uninstaller? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:small addition. I could not find any registry keys left behind. Also, I performed the uninstall on XP, and it left the same files behind, although the installer briefly flashed that it was uninstalling InstallManager.exe. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 05:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

::My opinion as the original author of the installer: The uninstaller leaving modules and application generated content is not a bug. But leaving icudt38.dll and InstallManager.exe is. Conceptually the installer installs two parts: BibleCS specific parts (the executables and their dlls) and shareable parts (i.e. locales.d, the modules and other things that all SWORD apps can use). I think it should have an option regarding the shareable parts. It probably should put these elsewhere and not in "The SWORD Project" directory.

:::My personal opinion is that leaving anything at all under Program Files is a bug. As a user, I would expect to be able to delete that and not delete my personal preferences as I would expect them to be stored with all my other application preferences. That's beside the point here. If it helps any, I did choose to leave the shared parts during both uninstalls. Perhaps InstallManager.exe and icudt38.dll got put in the wrong place in the uninstall script?--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll try again. [[User:Osk|Osk]] reverted my correction last time I did it. BibleCS, when run from a USB disk, '''will''' leave stuff behind; for starters (I haven't done a full scan, but these are the ones I remember and found):

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\sword.exe (put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\SharedDLLs\[install path]\sword.exe (not sure, probably put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\sword (sword:// protocol, put in by BibleCS, not sure if BibleCS depends on it)

If any of these are created by BibleCS if they are not there, which they are, then it '''does''' leave traces on the host machine.

Perhaps we could also say "don't use the Install Manager", as I understand it just plain doesn't work (it was the main reason Kevin Porter abandoned The SWORD Project for Windows Portable). At least, though, can we remove the word "no" in "leaves no traces on host machine" once more? [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

: No, actually, no I didn't. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 15:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:: It was me who changed this. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:Chris, did you find these keys on a computer that did not have them after running sword.exe or InstallManager.exe from the USB drive? I find that hard to believe. My experience, if you use the installer to install it to a USB device, it will leave traces on the computer on which you did the install. But if you install it temporarily to a computer and copy c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to the USB drive and then use that USB drive on a different computer, it should not change the registry of that machine. AFAIR, it is the installer that puts these keys into the registry, not the program. AFAIR, the InstallManager.exe does not change the registry, either. This program will use the mods.d and modules folder in the same directory to write it's modules.

:: In the thread last year "[GnomeSword-developers] win32 installer for testing", Chris Little said: "I'm not sure whether you're setting the private protocol handler in the installer or in the GS app, but you should be aware that BibleCS sets the handler to call itself every time it is launched. (It also sets the private protocol handler used by Logos iff it is not already set.)". So just based on that I would say it does set registry entries on startup, not on install. Not sure about installmanager, though [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 02:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll put together a PortableApps version of BibleCS this weekend so that we can put the whole issue to rest. No need to continue debating, but continue if it makes you happy. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Windowing and Text Display ==

I have taken out the Complex Scripts bit and shoved into Module support - it belongs more into that category. The narrative for windows display I think is best expressed in an adequate screenshot. The relevant principles which can be answerd with yes/no are - so far, I think, please add
# Un/linkable texts - e.g Commentary and Bible or several Bibles (both needs to be present - linking and unlinking)
# Parallel display of whole passages in a side by side fashion,
# the ability to hide unneeded Windows/screen areas.
# The ability to have several texts of a kind open at different books/chapters and being able to switch forward and backward
# Unconnected passages on one tab/window

A fair number of BD's list of Others is conceptually also an expression of verse lists

[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

What exactly is meant by poetry display here? Xiphos does display poetry with the correct line breaks and indentation (as in the module, but not exactly as the printed ESV as BPB does)--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Installer ==
Refdoc, I see that you have that BibleCS's installer sorts modules by language. I don't see that. I see it by type only.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
:Have I? mistake. This layout of the table is much better, but i still get confused occasionally. Please do check. Thanks [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] Sorted. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

==Soon?==

I really do not like "soon" as an entry. What is the cut off point for soon? I'd rather that things are yes/no/partial/not applicable and once something is implemented it will change to yes. Otherwise we will have a totally meaningless table. My honest/humble opinion. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 13:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I had a second look at what you marked as soon and I think this is actually fair enough - but I remarked it as partial. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 14:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I think soon or planned are fine categories, but it needs to have specific meaning. To me "soon" means that the capability is in beta and is generally available for testing. Perhaps, "beta" would be better than "soon" and it would have a link to the beta. To me "planned" means that the feature has been checked into source code control and will be part of the next release. Right now we have "yes" with footnotes stating this or that will be available with 1.5.12. Perhaps, "ready" would be better than "planned".--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Indexed Search ==

We have listed the technology, but what are the practical differences? Do all applications index on the same fields? Presumably yes, in which case the technology should be come an internal like other toolkits used. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 16:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The practical outworkings of above technological differences could/should form simply new rows - like crossboundary searches etc.[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

I agree with the new rows. Not sure what they should be.

Compared to SWORD (with key, body and strong), JSword indexes these and additional fields, allowing:
* note:(Abraham) - Find verses with notes about Abraham
* xref:(John 3:16) - Find verses with cross-references to John 3:16. (JSword will normalize the reference to an OSIS ID.)
* heading:(Moses) - Find verses with headings containing Moses.
JSword indexes also allow stemmed searches. It also has different analyzers for different languages. Our Thai analyzer, is necessary to get the word breaks correctly.

The other thing that a search engine bring is a search syntax. Each is different. CLucene and Lucene have the same syntax. I presume BPBible and MacSword have a different one.

Even with Lucene and CLucene, there are differences. JSword can use a SWORD index, but SWORD can't use a JSword index. The reason is that JSword is using Lucene 2.x and Clucene is compatible with 1.4.x. These have different storage formats. CLucene will never catch up with Lucene. We moved away from 1.4.x for outrageous performance gains.

The other thing that JSword has (and I think some others do) is passage restricted searching. This is layered on top of the search engine. If there is a different engine being used by an app, this feature might not be there.

That an app uses Lucene/CLucene/Apple Search/Custom is not a user concern, but it's impact is. One impact of MacSword using Apple's search is that it is available to Spotlight, the global search of the Mac. This is awesome!
--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 18:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Which make sme think whether at least Linux applications could not do the same - beagle etc. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 18:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

In addition to this, BibleTime also indexes several fields that Xiphos and SPW do not. I believe they include the fields that JSword indexes. This is an important distinction, and one where the official Sword indexing is lagging behind these others (at least as regards fields indexed, but it's a definite negative imo) As far as I know, only Xiphos and SPW are using the official Sword indexing --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==

The second table under this heading should be transposed, and should use abbreviations for the frontend applications. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:No. It is the source table for the first table it is the last table not completely imported into the vertical format. Once completely imported it will get deleted. Reason for the delay being thet I a) had no time for it yet and b) there are some things which do not add up in my testing [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 19:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

== Do any frontends or modules also install fonts? ==

Another question to ask of each application is, "Do any frontends or modules also install fonts?". [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::none do as far as I am aware [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:::The Xiphos Windows installer does install fonts --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if this is what was meant. More rather would/could the programme chase up needed fonts and download them. Or did I misunderstand you David? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

The program FlashCards (Greek/Hebrew learning tool) will load a font without installing them to the local OS. Not installing them locally is important for PortableApps' "leave no trace." I've thought of adding this capability to JSword and distribute some SIL fonts with it. It would be cool to be able to specify by URL some fonts to download. My thought it that we would host a open source fonts on the CrossWire server and serve them as we do modules and a new conf's entry FontSource would provide that URL.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Display of information about the source text? ==

Frontends differ in the amount of information they display about the source text for each module, and on how they manage this. This too needs a comparison chart. It's especially important for textual provenance and copyright status, etc. It is a chore to always have to refer to the CrossWire downloads page. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
:Among the frontends with which I am familiar, BD does this very nicely. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Syncrhonized scrolling? ==

Do all frontends that support parallel texts also provide an optional setting for synchronized vertical scrolling? If not, please compare. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::do any? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
::BD, MS, SPW, (others?) show their parallel Bibles in the same pane with a single scroll bar. BD also allows for commentaries to be shown in parallel view. So all of these have synchronized vertical scrolling. In BD (and perhaps the others) you can choose to show Bibles in different views (tabs or windows) and each has their own scroll bar. From what I have heard, but not seen, I believe Xiphos is unique in that you can tie any two verse number based views together (i.e. Bibles and/or Commentaries) and scrolling one will scroll the other so that they show the same material (in so far as is possible).
:::If Xiphos has this, I do not know how to do it :) I've considered adding a feature like this and would like to sometime, but it is not there now.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::I should add that Xiphos does allow parallel scrolling in the same manner as others. Not with commentary (yet).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== GIFs ==

I removed the note about GIF in graphics format support, changing it to JPEG only. I can see no reasonable reason to support GIF in Sword. PNG is far superior at all of the things GIF was previously used for. You can achieve the same or better quality with greater compression using PNG rather than GIF. Also, we don't actually support GIF on BibleCS, though it would take about 10 minutes to add support for it. (None of this has anything to do with the patents that encumbered GIF in the past, since they're all expired.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 00:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:As I noted above, there are already modules using GIF; there may be cases where content is already in GIF, in which case it's perhaps easiest to just leave it that way. If it's trivial to add it, why not just add it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

::To my knowledge, there is only one module using GIFs, and it's not CrossWire content. Material in GIFs can be bulk converted to PNGs. The only officially supported image file format is JPEG (although the first image test module actually consisted of BMPs). I think it's very reasonable to expand that to include PNGs, since they are useful in a variety of circumstances where JPEG is an inferior choice. But I can't see anything that GIF offers that PNG doesn't do better. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there is one argument I can see for (whatever not officially supported) image format - and that is copyright restrictions. Stuff like "distribute at will, but do not change in any form or way". Having said this I have not come across this wrt image formats and would consider a limitation of formats which ensures that all frontends can make equal use of it is a useful thing. What might be worthwhile though - and that goes way beyond this particular comparison page is a test module with every semi-relevant image format under the sun thrown in and then we could map which frontends (and not just the PC/Mac) ones can deal with them. It is clear that Webkit and Xul derrived fronends are pretty limitless in their support, while others might be a lot more restricted. It would be good to know. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Osk, this is a strong statement, even though I agree with it. I think that our "module making" guide should be explicit in stating "Only use jpeg now and after 1.5.12, you can also use png. Using any other kind of image will result in a module that cannot be used in one or more SWORD applications. Submission of a module with other image formats will hinder its acceptance into the CrossWire repository as such images will need to be converted into a supported format."--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 13:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== BpBible and font handling ==
<s>I think there is some serious misunderstanding here - unless I do not understand BpBible or do something seriously wrong. When I run BpBible I can change the fonts used to display material. But I can '''not''' set a font for a specific module - FarTPV with Nazli while ESV with Times new Roman. This is meant with font per module - or All Farsi modules get to use Nazli while all English ones use Sans Serif. The font handling of BpBible does not work when e.g. an Armenian module and a Farsi commentary is open as there is no font handling both languages. So I reverted Ben's contribution here. </s>[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 00:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Are you using 0.4? It does this. [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 00:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::refdoc: file->set fonts--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
<s>.Yes I use 0.4. But using file-setfonts results in all texts on dispolay changing their font. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]</s>
Sorry, my apologies Ben - I had downloaded 0.4 but was using 0.3 on this laptop. I test on a couple of different machines and got mixed up. This is now corrected. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Software & module updates - checking for updates via a proxy server? ==

If your frontend is installed on a computer that accesses the internet via a proxy server, when the application checks for either software updates or module updates, one of the features we should expect is whether this has configurable support for access via a proxy server. Please compare on this. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:For an example of a program that does this nicely, see [http://www.docu-track.com/home/prod_user/PDF-XChange_Tools/pdfx_viewer PDF-XChange Viewer]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think all which use a module manager do this.

Xiphos does not allow specifying a proxy server and I have not seen such a feature in any of the other programs. In linux, Xiphos should pick this up from the environment. On Windows, I do not know what the behavior would be. For Xiphos, I suspect that this would be something that would have to be added to the engine, although I don't know for sure. Perhaps there is an environment variable that curl will pick up. Although we haven't had reports yet, this is something that concerns me. I know from experience that configuring a program to use FTP through one or more firewalls, plus a proxy server is very difficult, particularly when the program doesn't allow setting the proxy manually but expects the environment to handle it. So in summary, no not all which use the module manager do this, certainly not Xiphos. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that the first time I ever used GnomeSword, I was behind a proxy (this was in linux, of course). I don't believe I ever got it working properly.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I just realized that BibleDesktop does allow specifying a proxy server. I believe this was why I first used BD rather than one of the other frontends. Kudos, DM --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]], thank you. The other thing that we do is http rather than ftp. Many firewalls block ftp but not http. (We still have the old ftp code lying around, but it was being blocked by XP SP2) So when we added http we also added proxy.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 04:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Friendly dates? ==

What is meant by friendly dates? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
:23 of February instead of 02.23 [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:Also it should be in the user's language.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Footnote expansion ==

The reported "1221 character limit" in BibleCS footnotes is an issue somewhat--and there's a fairly simple fix that we put out in some test builds back when the NET was being encoded. But it should be borne in mind that the NET, as encoded, is not official CrossWire content and warnings were given at the time it was produced about long footnotes. It's not clear to me that this is really a failing in BibleCS, rather that the NET is badly encoded (and I know others have the same opinion, if for other reasons, such as bad character encoding). So, ability to display improperly long footnotes should be fixed in BibleCS, but the single case where this arises as a problem should also be repaired. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 19:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

::This problem is not just for the NET. I have seen other things truncated, such as Strong's entries. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 21:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay... I spent a couple minutes testing this and can explain the behavior. There is no "1221 character limit". Firstly, there's no set character limit, there's actually a size limit, which depends on the text itself unless you use a monospaced font and which depends on the font size you use itself. Almost all notes, Strong's entries, etc. will display fine, assuming you don't increase the font size. But I have verified that Eccl 1.1 note 1, the longest note in NET according to Karl, does still get truncated. So I still think BibleCS should apply the NOTES commentary virtual module that we tested briefly. And I still think the NET is poorly encoded. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::one of the first things I do is increase the font size. You're saying that it shouldn't be considered a bug if you can read it without increasing the font size. This is fairly horrible program design in my opinion. It is surely something I would want to know as a user. Again, I haven't actually tried the NET, I saw this with other notes. See, for example, http://picasaweb.google.com/ransom1982/Gnomesword#5277582407118819138. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::So I tried it at my preferred font size of 14pt. It truncates after about 15 lines, which happens fairly frequently for the NETfree I was testing, and for strong's references routinely for another module I have. This module is not using the default strong's but one with somewhat longer definitions (privately created). In addition, with NETfree, many of the Greek words were unreadable in the footnotes. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

: Well--my bad for having implemented this and then deleted or lost it, but I dug through the mailing list archives for the discussion of virtual modules and think it should be fairly easy to re-create the NOTES commentary virtual module. Some further discussion of this and other virtual modules here: [[Whiteboard/Virtual_Modules]]. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

== Poetry Indentation levels ==

Probably 1 level or 2 level does not accurately describe what is being referred to here. BPB has poetry support for the ESV to match the printed version. This requires indenting on more than just the first line (which is what Xiphos does). See http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=psalm+1&src=esv.org for a comparison. Also search the sword-devel archives for this "Poetry and indented lines".

Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-08T10:37:09Z

Mwtalbert: /* Windowing and Text Display */ Xiphos has only a single level of indentation for poetry.

==Introduction==
This page is under development. As such it may not be helpful until it is near completion. For that reason, please don't link it on another page until then. To become complete it needs fair and balanced™ coverage of the SWORD programs.

Do feel free to edit this page to make it more complete and better organized.

The purpose of this page is to help an end user decide which SWORD program is the best for them. The first consideration is which programs are available for the user. This can be found at [http://www.crosswire.org CrossWire's home page]. Once the user has narrowed down which programs are available, the following can be used to focus on the best program.

It is recommended that each user try all the available programs. It is likely that one will resonate with the user and work best for that user.

==Features Common to All SWORD Applications==
For the most part all the SWORD programs have the same features.
* Uses Unicode
* Released under an open source license
* Powerful search syntax - wildcard, regex and often also clucene indexed searches (fuzzy and proximity searches + searches for Strong's, stemming etc) within preset and customised scopes.
* Strong's, morphological info, cross references and footnotes
* All frontends listed below are undergoing more or less active development.
* Verse and block layout
* Image support in all types of modules
* Localisation - all frontends are designed to be readily translatable. Many are translated in various languages.

==Side-by-Side Comparison of Notable SWORD Applications==
This is a work in progress.
=== Legends ===
To keep the lists below compact, the SWORD programs are identified by abbreviations. Here is an explanation of each of them:
*'''ABS''' - [http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study] based on JSword, uses Java 5+
*'''BD''' - [[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop]] based on JSword, uses Java 1.4.2+
*'''BT''' - [http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] uses cross-platform Qt toolkit
*'''BPB''' - [http://bpbible.com BPBible] uses wxPython
*'''FB''' - [http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible] based on JSword, runs in FireFox as an extension
*'''MS''' - [[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
*'''SPW''' - [[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
*'''SB''' - [http://swordwarrior.net/ SwordBible]
*'''Xi''' - [[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])

A blank entry means that it is unknown whether a feature is present. Footnotes are automatically numbered.

=== Operating Systems and Portability===

{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Runs on Windows 95/98/NT/ME'''

! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}}<ref>Not Win9x</ref>!! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"{{
| '''Runs on Windows 2000/XP/Vista/7'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{part}}<ref name="prealpha"> Pre-alpha</ref>!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Runs on Mac OS X 10.3+'''

! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}<ref>Version 1.3.x</ref>!! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Runs on Mac OS X 10.4+'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{part}}<ref name="prealpha"/>!! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}<ref>Version 1.4.x</ref>!! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Runs on Linux'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Runs on other Unix'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}<ref>BSD, Solaris</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''Can be installed to run from USB drive'''

! {{no}}
! {{yes}}<ref>[http://www.crosswire.org/~dmsmith/bd/ Portable] both in the sense that it can be carried in ones pocket and in the sense that it runs on Windows, Mac or Linux, requiring nothing from the host computer and leaving no trace on it.</ref>
! {{no}}
! {{yes}}<ref>[http://PortableApps.com/BPBiblePortable PortableApps.com edition] for Windows only. Leaves no trace on host computer.</ref>
! {{yes}}<ref>Using [http://PortableApps.com/FirefoxPortable Mozilla Firefox, Portable Edition] from PortableApps.com, for Windows only, but depends on a local installation of Java. Leaves no trace on host computer. Other platforms are possible.</ref>
! {{yes}}<ref>Leaves traces on host computer.</ref>
! {{yes}}<ref>Temporarily install to a computer and then copy the "C:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project" folder to the USB drive. Finally, uninstall it and delete install directory. Leaves no traces on host computer.</ref>
! {{no}}
! {{no}}
|}

<references/>

=== Module Support ===
{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Daily Devotions Start with Today'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Daily Devotions Show Friendly Dates'''<ref>Dates use locale appropriate date representation. Month names if used are localized, too.</ref>

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Shows Testament Introductions'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! !! {{no}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !!
|-valign="top"
| '''Shows Book Introductions'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Shows Chapter Introductions'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Personal Commentary'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}<ref name="exportable">Exportable as a SWORD module</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''Journal'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}<ref name="exportable"/>
|-valign="top"
| '''Right to Left Texts'''<ref>Arabic, Farsi, Hebrew and other modules Right-to-Left scripts are displayed from right-to-left and correctly shaped.</ref>

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Complex Scripts'''<ref>The application can display correctly [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmic_family_of_scripts Brahmic, Indic, and related scripts] (or other scripts of similar layout) - subject to availability of adequate fonts and standardized Unicode</ref>
! 
! 
! 
!  {{part}}<ref name="uniscribe">To the extent that [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniscribe Uniscribe] supports a given script</ref>
! 
! 
!  {{part}}<ref name="uniscribe"/>
! 
!  {{yes}}<ref>With [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pango pango]-[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite_(SIL) graphite] installed</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''Footnote expansion'''
! 
!  {{yes}}
!  {{yes}}
! 
! 
! 
!  {{part}}<ref name="Limited">Notes appear in popup. Extremely long notes may appear truncated in the popup.</ref>
! 
!  {{yes}}
|}

<references/>

=== Module Management ===
{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Integrated module manager'''

! {{yes}}<ref name="plugins">via plugins</ref>!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{part}}<ref>Zip installer for locally available modules only</ref> !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Module unlocking support'''<ref>The application allows the user to supply the unlock key. The user does not have to manually edit the module's conf file.</ref>

! {{yes}}<ref name="plugins"/>!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Multiple download repositories'''<ref>Integrated installer allows download from more than one SWORD module repository.</ref>

! {{yes}}<ref name="plugins"/>!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{n/a}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Local Repositories (e.g. CrossWire CD)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Use of Proxy configurable'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{n/a}}!! {{n/a}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Downloaded modules are available immediately without restart'''

! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{n/a}} !! {{yes}}<ref>After repository refresh.</ref>!! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''User is warned of internet access'''

! {{yes}}<ref name="plugins"/> !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{n/a}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''User is advised about download size'''

! {{yes}}<ref name="plugins"/> !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{n/a}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}<ref>Xiphos will extract info from repository if provided</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''User can continue working while download is in progress'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{n/a}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Download can be canceled'''

! {{yes}}<ref name="plugins"/> !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{n/a}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{part}}
|-valign="top"
| '''User is warned if module already exists.'''

! {{yes}}<ref name="plugins"/> !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! !! !! {{yes}} <ref>Installed modules are highlighted</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''User is notified of module updates'''

! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''User is notified of new modules'''

! !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Hiding/Showing installed modules'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Modules sorted by type'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Modules are further sorted by language'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Modules can be archived/exported'''<ref>Packages a module into SWORD's shareable "Raw Zip" format.</ref>

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Companion Module support'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|}

<references/>

=== Image Module Support ===
{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| ''' Image Resizing'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''JPEG format'''<ref>All full-featured SWORD applications should already have support for this types.</ref>

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| ''' PNG format'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}}<ref> PNG support will be available in 1.5.12 upwards</ref> !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| ''' SVG format'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{yes}}
|}
<references/>

=== Windowing and Text Display ===

{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Window Layout flexible'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Un/Linkable'''<ref>Open text panes can by user choice be linked or unlinked and will then move together to the next reference or stay at different references</ref>

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Parallel Display'''<ref>Several bible +/-commentary texts can be displayed in a set of parallel columns</ref>

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Multiple texts'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Poetry Layout'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} <ref> 2 level indentation</ref>!! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}<ref>Not indented</ref>!! !! {{yes}} <ref> 1 level indentation</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''Ruby Layout'''<ref>[http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/ Ruby] is a not-yet-released SWORD 1.5.12 feature. Used for Japanese texts.</ref>

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}} !! !! !! !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Module default font'''<ref>Used if the font is installed</ref>

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Font settable per module'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Font settable per language'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Transliteration'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}}<ref>This is available if compiled with ICU.</ref> !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|}
<references/>

=== Search and Dictionary ===
{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Able to create a search index'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}<ref>Automatically created searching a module first time</ref>!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Able to delete a search index'''

! {{yes}}<ref>Through plugins</ref> !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! !! {{n/a}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''User can continue to use application while index is being created'''

! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Indexed Search'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Cross Verse Proximity Search'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}<ref>Allowing phrases across verse boundaries</ref>!! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Indexed Strong, Morphology and Body search'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Indexed CrossRef search'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Indexed Note and Heading search'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Fuzzy search'''<ref>Finds words based upon approximation.</ref>

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''GenBook and Commentary search'''

! !! {{part}}<ref>Commentaries when treated as Bibles</ref>!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Combined module search'''

! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}<ref>Creation of lists of modules to be searched together</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''Search scopes'''<ref>Limit search to one or more passages or books</ref>

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Automatic/On-Mouse Strongs/Morphology lookup'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Automatic/On-Mouse Glossary lookup'''

! !! {{no}} !! !! !! !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|}
<references/>

=== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ===

{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Bookmarks, Verselists or Tags'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}<ref>Utilizes FF bookmarking system</ref>!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Manual adding'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Bulk adding of Search result'''

! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Permanent'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Hierarchical'''

! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Drag and drop management'''

! !! {{n/a}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{n/a}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Exportable'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''User comments'''

! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Study Notes'''

! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|}

<references/>

=== Session and State Management ===
{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Layout stored'''

! {{yes}} !! {{part}}<ref>Size and location of windows only</ref>!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Interface language'''

! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! !! {{n/a}}<ref>Selected from locale setting</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''Open Modules'''

! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Search Results'''

! !! {{part}}<ref>User can store the results of a search as a verse list</ref>!! !! !! !! !! !! !!
|-valign="top"
| '''Storing of multiple Sessions'''

! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! !! !! {{yes}}
|}
<references/>

=== Help System ===

{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Manual, English'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Manual, Other'''

! !! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! !! !! !! {{yes}}<ref> French</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''Active links to online help'''

! !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! !! {{yes}}<ref>IRC, Mailing lists, bug tracker</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''Tooltips'''

! {{yes}}!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! !! {{yes}}
|}
<references/>

=== Localization ===
Only languages with at least 70% of the user interface translated are listed.

The following languages are present in more than one SWORD application.
{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''GUI RtoL Support'''<ref>Layout flips from Left-to-Right layout to Right-to-Left based on user's locale.</ref>

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''English'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Deutsch (German)'''

! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}}<ref> BPBible 0.4.1 will have a German translation </ref> !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Português (Portuguese)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Suomi (Finnish)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''فارسی (Persian)'''

! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)'''

! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)'''

! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Français (French)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Česky (Czech)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !!{{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Español (Spanish)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Polski (Polish)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Svenska (Swedish)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|}
<references/>

The following languages are present in only one SWORD application.
{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''中文 (Chinese, Traditional and Simplified)'''

! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Dansk (Danish)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Afrikaans'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''日本語 (Japanese)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Magyar (Hungarian)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Slovenščina (Slovenian)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''עברית (Hebrew)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Norsk (Norwegian)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Nederlands (Dutch)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|}

=== Other ===
{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Extramodular Bible Reading Plan'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Other extramodular content'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}<ref>Bible Study HOWTO</ref> !!{{yes}} <ref>Gospel Harmonies, Guess the Verse game</ref> !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} <ref>Topical verse lists</ref> !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Read aloud'''

! {{no}} !! {{part}}<ref name="maconly">On MacOS 10.3+ only</ref>!! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Other features not listed otherwise'''

! !! !! !! {{yes}}<ref>Display Strong's headwords, configurable export passage to clipboard</ref> !! !! !! !! !! {{yes}}<ref>Pseudo-interlinear display of Strong's/morphology; commentary by chapter; lexdict mouse-hover content-to-previewer; tab-able parallel window; passage exporter</ref>
|}
<references/>

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-08T10:02:55Z

Mwtalbert: /* Image Formats / other Image Module support */ BibleCS can't display images in modules which live somewhere other than in the installation directory.

== Project Links ==
For the front end links, we need to choose either links to homepages or links to wiki pages, not both. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

== Localization ==
I would recommend not listing that front ends can be localized. I don't think that actually matters to any users. What is important, and hence what we should list, is the existing list of UI localizations for each front end. (Ability to display RtoL text is a separate issue, independent of UI localization, so I think that's fine to keep.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

:The original intention of each entry in the table was/is that it gets removed if a feature is present in all frontends. This one means little to end users , but it means something to translators and developers. If we can find out whether SwordBible can get translated easily then all are localisable and the feature should be listed above the table.

Does localization extend to using different numerals for chapter & verse navigation & verse markers ? Or do some Frontends retain digits 0...9 even when everything else is localized? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think BD is the only one that does bi-directional number shaping. That is the user can type in localized digits and BD will shape it into 0-9 (if not already as such). And when displaying it transforms from 0-9 into the user's localized representation, if different. We only do this for user input and program generated numbers. We don't do it for numbers that are explicitly in the text. IMHO, text should be displayed as is. (For ICU's Javadoc on it see: http://icu-project.org/apiref/icu4j/com/ibm/icu/text/ArabicShaping.html).--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

::Here is [http://www.code2000.net/numbersutf.htm A Table of Numbers] in various scripts from Arabic to Tibetan (and more). [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

== Archiving ==
"Archiving" means what? Removal to another location? Compression? Consider whether this is a feature that is actually important to users in their process of making a decision between front ends--not just an attempt at one-upping. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 01:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Osk - if you mistook this table as one-upmanship then you are badly mistaken. I tried to unravel the narrative everyone seems to give about their frontend. Archiving is GS tem for keeping modules out of sight but available. It does what it says on the tin. BT has (I think) a different solution to the same concern. The tables are quite obviously increasingly not anymore for first time users, but that is quite irrelevant. We can always finally extract the core points for a message to users, but there are other uses for these tables possible too - for developers, for translators - where to concentrate effort etc [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Xiphos's concept of archiving is different than what is explained here. It does not actually 'hide' the module; it will still be available after archiving. Archiving zips up the module (preserving correct paths) so that it can be easily transferred to another machine. This is handy for user-created modules if you want to share them with someone else, and will probably be an integral part of future plans to allow uploading modules. Also, you can archive a module, then remove it (which would also affect other apps). Xiphos provides no way for 'hiding' without complete removal (although it probably should). However, the archiving feature is unique and provides benefit to end users. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Complex Scripts ==
What does "Complex Scripts" mean in this context? When people talk about complex scripts, they're not generally talking about basic things like Arabic shaping. They generally mean things like contextual shaping of Indic or rising baseline Arabic calligraphy. And this feature could have differing values for a single front end, depending on the platform. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think originally Peter meant support for Myanmar which BibleCS lacks. I take issue with the notation (with Uniscribe) because I *have* Uniscribe, and have told BibleCS to use a font that I *know* has the correct symbols, yet BibleCS can still not display the text. --[[User:mwtalbert|mwtalbert]]
::: This is a bad misunderstanding or misquote. I never singled out BibleCS in this matter. All frontends failed BurJudson, some worse some less bad. The level of support can clearly not always get answered with simply yes/no. But as such it is an important matter - as some frontends are constitutionally incapable of rendereing such scripts and others require additional work (which is fine if it works) [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 23:04, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::So, should we change the category "Complex Scripts" to "BurJudson works"? I could release a module (assuming I could get permission, that is) that would universally fail because none of the existing front ends can support its writing system. Would we then mark all front ends as not supporting complex scripts?
::The notation about Uniscribe is more descriptive than a "yes" or "no", since the best possible result any front end can report is support of ''some'' complex scripts. Unless I'm simply mistaken (which is certainly possible) and BibleCS's RTF control doesn't actually use Uniscribe, the failure to correctly render BurJudson is simply indicative of Uniscribe not completely supporting that script yet. (I will investigate whether I'm wrong about Uniscribe.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 20:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

If you could explain how you managed to get BibleCS to do anything more than display little boxes for the text in BurJudson, I'd be interested in knowing. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 04:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: I just updated BurJudson to expect [http://scripts.sil.org/Padauk Padauk] by default so following an update or manual font change it should work for you, but prior to that it had required the [http://www.thanlwinsoft.org/ThanLwinSoft/Downloads/Fonts/PadaukOT-2.1.exe PadaukOT font]. The latter has since been discontinued since SIL added OT tables to their font. If you have another Unicode font with Myanmar support, you will have to set it either in the .conf directly or via the module preferences panel. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I expected that when I changed all the Bible texts to use Padauk it would attempt to use that for BurJudson. Apparently it doesn't work that way. I changed the .conf to use Paduak instead of PadaukOT and it works now (at least to the point of showing the characters, I didn't check specific rendering issues).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

It should probably be mentioned, since BurJudson is being taken as indicative of complex script rendering capability, that Myanmar text is probably the least likely to exhibit correct rendering of any script. Myanmar was first added to Unicode at version 4.0 in 2003. Apparently no one liked the encoding model, so it was radically changed in Unicode 5.1 (released last April). As a result documents may not be updated to Unicode 5.1 encoding (I doubt BurJudson has been)--although many fonts have already been updated to Unicode 5.1's Myanmar encoding model (Padauk and PadaukOT both are). Furthermore, text layout engines may or may not be updated. (I would guess that Graphite has been updated, but the latest Uniscribe has not.) So it would be reasonable to expect a bit of chaos within the world of Myanmar text for the next couple years. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: Fair point. Do we have any other module which tests well the same concepts? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:: I'm (slowly) working on a script demo module, which will include an entry for each script identified in [http://unicode.org/iso15924/iso15924-codes.html ISO 15924]. I had intended it for testing transliteration facilities, but we can also use it to test rendering in general. More immediately, the UDHR module contains texts in many languages, using many scripts, a good portion of them complex (though about 80% of the entries are probably either Latin or Cyrillic). Notably, UDHR contains the same Myanmar text encoded using the Unicode 4.0 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 5)) and the Unicode 5.1 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 6)). --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 10:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I also think the column should go into module support next to the RtoL support - I will do this later today. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Image GenBook support ==
Users do not know what GenBook means. Are images really unsupported in any kind of module type? --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:There is a bug in Bible Desktop, that has been fixed in SVN, that did not properly determine the proper display a Dictionary (LD) with images that is also marked Category=Maps. BD/JSword support all image types that Java can render. I don't know what that is, but at least it includes all the types that we would use in a module.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

== Image Formats / other Image Module support ==
These are not things that an end-user cares about. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
: I agree. I think this can be generalized to a bigger issue. Karl has a wonderful repository of non-official, very useful modules. These may show problems in end-user applications. For example, if his map modules have png images, then there is some front-end that does not support it. The user cares about available modules working or not working.
: I already mentioned the Bible Desktop bug regarding LD image modules marked as Maps. While I routinely test JSword/BD against all CrossWire modules, I don't against Karl's repository. Given it's visibility and value, I think I should.
: The bigger question is how do we note short-comings/bugs in a particular application? I don't think this is the appropriate venue. (Though I don't mind JSword being called out as lagging SWORD.)--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I have to run to church right now, but as soon as I get a chance, I'm going to nuke the whole Images category down to a single, uninformative "Supports Images" column, universally marked with "yes". --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

What was this, Osk? I have restored the section and would appreciate if it stays up. This section has meaning and is reflected in existing modules [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

To be clear this is not about bugs but about frontend limitations - so once it is clear that all frontends can actually deal with all module types then the point simply gets deleted and amalgamated in the "all frontends do xyz" list. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:All front ends support basically the same set of features, with respect to images, in either their current release or in SVN. And these are not end-user concerns, they are developer concerns. Users don't know which format module images use or which kind of module they will appear in, they simply expect content they download to work. So this whole section is completely unnecessary to users. Front end developers don't need it either, since all limitations have already been worked around (namely, the SVN versions of all front ends should now support JPEG & PNG images in all module types). (I don't consider other formats necessary, so we won't ever release content that uses other image formats.) The particulars of which versions of various front ends support which formats & which module types may be useful to content developers, but I can advise them of that during the submission process, and this need not be included as part of a feature matrix aimed at end users. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Do they? If all frontends (at current svn level) can have all module types laced with images this column will obviously go the same way as any other column which is all round "yes". Wrt image formats - svg is the one notable format which brings enormous benefits (due to its translatability) , so svg support is something which is valuable. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

There are already modules that have images in gif format, so I think it should be listed. Not sure why it should *never* be supported. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

This is slightly off-topic, and perhaps it should be reported elsewhere, but I've just confirmed that BibleCS has '''NO''' image support if the images aren't in modules under the BibleCS installation directory. I have SWORD_PATH set to M:/Sword (shared network drive), and none of my image modules were working. I finally added the mods.d folder back (BibleCS then ignores SWORD_PATH), installed an image module with the InstallManager, which then worked (after a restart, of course). This is a fairly serious bug (at least it would be for me, as installing modules under the BibleCS installation directory is not an option). --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 10:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

== Study Notes ==
What are study notes in the tagging section? [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 09:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:Study notes are simply a text editor type note taking facility which then can get exported - e.g. for sermon preparation. This could have gone just as well to '''other''', or where ever, but in the end it is often the final result of a search and bookmarking exercise that you go and write something up which tyou then print and take somewhere else. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 22:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::Personal study notes in a multi-user OS may be ''global'' (all users see them) or ''individual'' (current user sees only his/her own). Could we include a table row that shows which applies? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== BibleCS Portability ==
BibleCS is not properly portable. For once I'm not even applying the stringent PortableApps.com "stealth" requirements. It depends on some libraries (which they are escapes me) and controls which may not be installed on the local user's machine. Also, it leaves stuff all over the place in the registry, and registers itself and so on in a way which leaves orphaned entries in the registry in a most horrible way. What I really complain about though is the fact that on some computers, it won't even just be "Just Works™". For reference on some issues, see [http://portableapps.com/node/10582 this thread] on PortableApps.com. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 10:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:I have just read the thread and I don't think it applies. BibleCS is properly portable wrt to the registry, but it takes some work. First, one has to install it to the default location, which uses the registry. Then one copies c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to a thumb drive. Then it is un-installed from the local machine. This is a one time operation. Second, the user has to use the built-in module installer and not the windows modules downloaded from CrossWire in Windows format. The latter uses the registry. Is it this specific path that prevents the "Just Works". It would be simple enough to zip the contents of that directory and make it available as a portable download. Would that qualify as "Just Works"?
:As to the library problem, if you can recall them that would be great. This it the first I have heard of this.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::It registers all sorts of messy things... in my books, that ruins it, but it still Just Works™. See my comment a bit lower down as to the rest. Absolute paths can be a big problem though. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:You can't recall which libraries it requires because it doesn't. Everything needed by BibleCS is contained within its directory. It writes a few registry entries, but does not need them for its own functioning (only for private protocol calls). And those registry entries really could be deleted upon exit, if desired. So if you move BibleCS around to computers other than that to which it was installed, it will work perfectly fine. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::Got a feeling it was the rich text component or something. The protocol and executable registration is a nuisance as well, and I'd need to test whether it was really dependant on these - if so, it's unlikely to run as a limited user on a new machine. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

FWIW I consider this discussion a bit beside the point. If something runs off a USB drive it is portable in all practical sense. If it leaves a little bit of bit-garbage behind then it is still ''portable'', but not ''securely portable'' in the sense that no one will ever know you used it there - but that is a second matter. If the reason that you do not want to leave anything behind is indeed your physical or job security then even portable apps has a massive problem - and that is teh fact that USB drives get logged by Windows - at least if you do a half decent set-up. The only way to securely (in that particular sense) deploy an application is by running it off a bootable CD. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 08:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to get involved in this discussion, as it doesn't matter to me at all. However, I just uninstalled BibleCS from my Windows 7 computer, and it left icudt38.dll, InstallManager.exe, and userprefs.conf in the installation directory. Perhaps something is wrong in the uninstaller? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:small addition. I could not find any registry keys left behind. Also, I performed the uninstall on XP, and it left the same files behind, although the installer briefly flashed that it was uninstalling InstallManager.exe. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 05:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

::My opinion as the original author of the installer: The uninstaller leaving modules and application generated content is not a bug. But leaving icudt38.dll and InstallManager.exe is. Conceptually the installer installs two parts: BibleCS specific parts (the executables and their dlls) and shareable parts (i.e. locales.d, the modules and other things that all SWORD apps can use). I think it should have an option regarding the shareable parts. It probably should put these elsewhere and not in "The SWORD Project" directory.

:::My personal opinion is that leaving anything at all under Program Files is a bug. As a user, I would expect to be able to delete that and not delete my personal preferences as I would expect them to be stored with all my other application preferences. That's beside the point here. If it helps any, I did choose to leave the shared parts during both uninstalls. Perhaps InstallManager.exe and icudt38.dll got put in the wrong place in the uninstall script?--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll try again. [[User:Osk|Osk]] reverted my correction last time I did it. BibleCS, when run from a USB disk, '''will''' leave stuff behind; for starters (I haven't done a full scan, but these are the ones I remember and found):

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\sword.exe (put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\SharedDLLs\[install path]\sword.exe (not sure, probably put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\sword (sword:// protocol, put in by BibleCS, not sure if BibleCS depends on it)

If any of these are created by BibleCS if they are not there, which they are, then it '''does''' leave traces on the host machine.

Perhaps we could also say "don't use the Install Manager", as I understand it just plain doesn't work (it was the main reason Kevin Porter abandoned The SWORD Project for Windows Portable). At least, though, can we remove the word "no" in "leaves no traces on host machine" once more? [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

: No, actually, no I didn't. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 15:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:: It was me who changed this. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:Chris, did you find these keys on a computer that did not have them after running sword.exe or InstallManager.exe from the USB drive? I find that hard to believe. My experience, if you use the installer to install it to a USB device, it will leave traces on the computer on which you did the install. But if you install it temporarily to a computer and copy c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to the USB drive and then use that USB drive on a different computer, it should not change the registry of that machine. AFAIR, it is the installer that puts these keys into the registry, not the program. AFAIR, the InstallManager.exe does not change the registry, either. This program will use the mods.d and modules folder in the same directory to write it's modules.

:: In the thread last year "[GnomeSword-developers] win32 installer for testing", Chris Little said: "I'm not sure whether you're setting the private protocol handler in the installer or in the GS app, but you should be aware that BibleCS sets the handler to call itself every time it is launched. (It also sets the private protocol handler used by Logos iff it is not already set.)". So just based on that I would say it does set registry entries on startup, not on install. Not sure about installmanager, though [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 02:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll put together a PortableApps version of BibleCS this weekend so that we can put the whole issue to rest. No need to continue debating, but continue if it makes you happy. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Windowing and Text Display ==

I have taken out the Complex Scripts bit and shoved into Module support - it belongs more into that category. The narrative for windows display I think is best expressed in an adequate screenshot. The relevant principles which can be answerd with yes/no are - so far, I think, please add
# Un/linkable texts - e.g Commentary and Bible or several Bibles (both needs to be present - linking and unlinking)
# Parallel display of whole passages in a side by side fashion,
# the ability to hide unneeded Windows/screen areas.
# The ability to have several texts of a kind open at different books/chapters and being able to switch forward and backward
# Unconnected passages on one tab/window

A fair number of BD's list of Others is conceptually also an expression of verse lists

[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

What exactly is meant by poetry display here? Xiphos does display poetry with the correct line breaks and indentation (as in the module, but not exactly as the printed ESV as BPB does)--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Installer ==
Refdoc, I see that you have that BibleCS's installer sorts modules by language. I don't see that. I see it by type only.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
:Have I? mistake. This layout of the table is much better, but i still get confused occasionally. Please do check. Thanks [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] Sorted. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

==Soon?==

I really do not like "soon" as an entry. What is the cut off point for soon? I'd rather that things are yes/no/partial/not applicable and once something is implemented it will change to yes. Otherwise we will have a totally meaningless table. My honest/humble opinion. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 13:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I had a second look at what you marked as soon and I think this is actually fair enough - but I remarked it as partial. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 14:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I think soon or planned are fine categories, but it needs to have specific meaning. To me "soon" means that the capability is in beta and is generally available for testing. Perhaps, "beta" would be better than "soon" and it would have a link to the beta. To me "planned" means that the feature has been checked into source code control and will be part of the next release. Right now we have "yes" with footnotes stating this or that will be available with 1.5.12. Perhaps, "ready" would be better than "planned".--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Indexed Search ==

We have listed the technology, but what are the practical differences? Do all applications index on the same fields? Presumably yes, in which case the technology should be come an internal like other toolkits used. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 16:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The practical outworkings of above technological differences could/should form simply new rows - like crossboundary searches etc.[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

I agree with the new rows. Not sure what they should be.

Compared to SWORD (with key, body and strong), JSword indexes these and additional fields, allowing:
* note:(Abraham) - Find verses with notes about Abraham
* xref:(John 3:16) - Find verses with cross-references to John 3:16. (JSword will normalize the reference to an OSIS ID.)
* heading:(Moses) - Find verses with headings containing Moses.
JSword indexes also allow stemmed searches. It also has different analyzers for different languages. Our Thai analyzer, is necessary to get the word breaks correctly.

The other thing that a search engine bring is a search syntax. Each is different. CLucene and Lucene have the same syntax. I presume BPBible and MacSword have a different one.

Even with Lucene and CLucene, there are differences. JSword can use a SWORD index, but SWORD can't use a JSword index. The reason is that JSword is using Lucene 2.x and Clucene is compatible with 1.4.x. These have different storage formats. CLucene will never catch up with Lucene. We moved away from 1.4.x for outrageous performance gains.

The other thing that JSword has (and I think some others do) is passage restricted searching. This is layered on top of the search engine. If there is a different engine being used by an app, this feature might not be there.

That an app uses Lucene/CLucene/Apple Search/Custom is not a user concern, but it's impact is. One impact of MacSword using Apple's search is that it is available to Spotlight, the global search of the Mac. This is awesome!
--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 18:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Which make sme think whether at least Linux applications could not do the same - beagle etc. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 18:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

In addition to this, BibleTime also indexes several fields that Xiphos and SPW do not. I believe they include the fields that JSword indexes. This is an important distinction, and one where the official Sword indexing is lagging behind these others (at least as regards fields indexed, but it's a definite negative imo) As far as I know, only Xiphos and SPW are using the official Sword indexing --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==

The second table under this heading should be transposed, and should use abbreviations for the frontend applications. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:No. It is the source table for the first table it is the last table not completely imported into the vertical format. Once completely imported it will get deleted. Reason for the delay being thet I a) had no time for it yet and b) there are some things which do not add up in my testing [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 19:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

== Do any frontends or modules also install fonts? ==

Another question to ask of each application is, "Do any frontends or modules also install fonts?". [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::none do as far as I am aware [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:::The Xiphos Windows installer does install fonts --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if this is what was meant. More rather would/could the programme chase up needed fonts and download them. Or did I misunderstand you David? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

The program FlashCards (Greek/Hebrew learning tool) will load a font without installing them to the local OS. Not installing them locally is important for PortableApps' "leave no trace." I've thought of adding this capability to JSword and distribute some SIL fonts with it. It would be cool to be able to specify by URL some fonts to download. My thought it that we would host a open source fonts on the CrossWire server and serve them as we do modules and a new conf's entry FontSource would provide that URL.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Display of information about the source text? ==

Frontends differ in the amount of information they display about the source text for each module, and on how they manage this. This too needs a comparison chart. It's especially important for textual provenance and copyright status, etc. It is a chore to always have to refer to the CrossWire downloads page. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
:Among the frontends with which I am familiar, BD does this very nicely. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Syncrhonized scrolling? ==

Do all frontends that support parallel texts also provide an optional setting for synchronized vertical scrolling? If not, please compare. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::do any? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
::BD, MS, SPW, (others?) show their parallel Bibles in the same pane with a single scroll bar. BD also allows for commentaries to be shown in parallel view. So all of these have synchronized vertical scrolling. In BD (and perhaps the others) you can choose to show Bibles in different views (tabs or windows) and each has their own scroll bar. From what I have heard, but not seen, I believe Xiphos is unique in that you can tie any two verse number based views together (i.e. Bibles and/or Commentaries) and scrolling one will scroll the other so that they show the same material (in so far as is possible).
:::If Xiphos has this, I do not know how to do it :) I've considered adding a feature like this and would like to sometime, but it is not there now.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::I should add that Xiphos does allow parallel scrolling in the same manner as others. Not with commentary (yet).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== GIFs ==

I removed the note about GIF in graphics format support, changing it to JPEG only. I can see no reasonable reason to support GIF in Sword. PNG is far superior at all of the things GIF was previously used for. You can achieve the same or better quality with greater compression using PNG rather than GIF. Also, we don't actually support GIF on BibleCS, though it would take about 10 minutes to add support for it. (None of this has anything to do with the patents that encumbered GIF in the past, since they're all expired.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 00:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:As I noted above, there are already modules using GIF; there may be cases where content is already in GIF, in which case it's perhaps easiest to just leave it that way. If it's trivial to add it, why not just add it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

::To my knowledge, there is only one module using GIFs, and it's not CrossWire content. Material in GIFs can be bulk converted to PNGs. The only officially supported image file format is JPEG (although the first image test module actually consisted of BMPs). I think it's very reasonable to expand that to include PNGs, since they are useful in a variety of circumstances where JPEG is an inferior choice. But I can't see anything that GIF offers that PNG doesn't do better. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there is one argument I can see for (whatever not officially supported) image format - and that is copyright restrictions. Stuff like "distribute at will, but do not change in any form or way". Having said this I have not come across this wrt image formats and would consider a limitation of formats which ensures that all frontends can make equal use of it is a useful thing. What might be worthwhile though - and that goes way beyond this particular comparison page is a test module with every semi-relevant image format under the sun thrown in and then we could map which frontends (and not just the PC/Mac) ones can deal with them. It is clear that Webkit and Xul derrived fronends are pretty limitless in their support, while others might be a lot more restricted. It would be good to know. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Osk, this is a strong statement, even though I agree with it. I think that our "module making" guide should be explicit in stating "Only use jpeg now and after 1.5.12, you can also use png. Using any other kind of image will result in a module that cannot be used in one or more SWORD applications. Submission of a module with other image formats will hinder its acceptance into the CrossWire repository as such images will need to be converted into a supported format."--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 13:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== BpBible and font handling ==
<s>I think there is some serious misunderstanding here - unless I do not understand BpBible or do something seriously wrong. When I run BpBible I can change the fonts used to display material. But I can '''not''' set a font for a specific module - FarTPV with Nazli while ESV with Times new Roman. This is meant with font per module - or All Farsi modules get to use Nazli while all English ones use Sans Serif. The font handling of BpBible does not work when e.g. an Armenian module and a Farsi commentary is open as there is no font handling both languages. So I reverted Ben's contribution here. </s>[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 00:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Are you using 0.4? It does this. [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 00:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::refdoc: file->set fonts--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
<s>.Yes I use 0.4. But using file-setfonts results in all texts on dispolay changing their font. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]</s>
Sorry, my apologies Ben - I had downloaded 0.4 but was using 0.3 on this laptop. I test on a couple of different machines and got mixed up. This is now corrected. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Software & module updates - checking for updates via a proxy server? ==

If your frontend is installed on a computer that accesses the internet via a proxy server, when the application checks for either software updates or module updates, one of the features we should expect is whether this has configurable support for access via a proxy server. Please compare on this. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:For an example of a program that does this nicely, see [http://www.docu-track.com/home/prod_user/PDF-XChange_Tools/pdfx_viewer PDF-XChange Viewer]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think all which use a module manager do this.

Xiphos does not allow specifying a proxy server and I have not seen such a feature in any of the other programs. In linux, Xiphos should pick this up from the environment. On Windows, I do not know what the behavior would be. For Xiphos, I suspect that this would be something that would have to be added to the engine, although I don't know for sure. Perhaps there is an environment variable that curl will pick up. Although we haven't had reports yet, this is something that concerns me. I know from experience that configuring a program to use FTP through one or more firewalls, plus a proxy server is very difficult, particularly when the program doesn't allow setting the proxy manually but expects the environment to handle it. So in summary, no not all which use the module manager do this, certainly not Xiphos. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that the first time I ever used GnomeSword, I was behind a proxy (this was in linux, of course). I don't believe I ever got it working properly.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I just realized that BibleDesktop does allow specifying a proxy server. I believe this was why I first used BD rather than one of the other frontends. Kudos, DM --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]], thank you. The other thing that we do is http rather than ftp. Many firewalls block ftp but not http. (We still have the old ftp code lying around, but it was being blocked by XP SP2) So when we added http we also added proxy.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 04:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Friendly dates? ==

What is meant by friendly dates? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
:23 of February instead of 02.23 [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:Also it should be in the user's language.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Footnote expansion ==

The reported "1221 character limit" in BibleCS footnotes is an issue somewhat--and there's a fairly simple fix that we put out in some test builds back when the NET was being encoded. But it should be borne in mind that the NET, as encoded, is not official CrossWire content and warnings were given at the time it was produced about long footnotes. It's not clear to me that this is really a failing in BibleCS, rather that the NET is badly encoded (and I know others have the same opinion, if for other reasons, such as bad character encoding). So, ability to display improperly long footnotes should be fixed in BibleCS, but the single case where this arises as a problem should also be repaired. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 19:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

::This problem is not just for the NET. I have seen other things truncated, such as Strong's entries. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 21:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay... I spent a couple minutes testing this and can explain the behavior. There is no "1221 character limit". Firstly, there's no set character limit, there's actually a size limit, which depends on the text itself unless you use a monospaced font and which depends on the font size you use itself. Almost all notes, Strong's entries, etc. will display fine, assuming you don't increase the font size. But I have verified that Eccl 1.1 note 1, the longest note in NET according to Karl, does still get truncated. So I still think BibleCS should apply the NOTES commentary virtual module that we tested briefly. And I still think the NET is poorly encoded. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::one of the first things I do is increase the font size. You're saying that it shouldn't be considered a bug if you can read it without increasing the font size. This is fairly horrible program design in my opinion. It is surely something I would want to know as a user. Again, I haven't actually tried the NET, I saw this with other notes. See, for example, http://picasaweb.google.com/ransom1982/Gnomesword#5277582407118819138. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::So I tried it at my preferred font size of 14pt. It truncates after about 15 lines, which happens fairly frequently for the NETfree I was testing, and for strong's references routinely for another module I have. This module is not using the default strong's but one with somewhat longer definitions (privately created). In addition, with NETfree, many of the Greek words were unreadable in the footnotes. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

: Well--my bad for having implemented this and then deleted or lost it, but I dug through the mailing list archives for the discussion of virtual modules and think it should be fairly easy to re-create the NOTES commentary virtual module. Some further discussion of this and other virtual modules here: [[Whiteboard/Virtual_Modules]]. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-08T09:43:47Z

Mwtalbert: /* Footnote expansion */

== Project Links ==
For the front end links, we need to choose either links to homepages or links to wiki pages, not both. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

== Localization ==
I would recommend not listing that front ends can be localized. I don't think that actually matters to any users. What is important, and hence what we should list, is the existing list of UI localizations for each front end. (Ability to display RtoL text is a separate issue, independent of UI localization, so I think that's fine to keep.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

:The original intention of each entry in the table was/is that it gets removed if a feature is present in all frontends. This one means little to end users , but it means something to translators and developers. If we can find out whether SwordBible can get translated easily then all are localisable and the feature should be listed above the table.

Does localization extend to using different numerals for chapter & verse navigation & verse markers ? Or do some Frontends retain digits 0...9 even when everything else is localized? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think BD is the only one that does bi-directional number shaping. That is the user can type in localized digits and BD will shape it into 0-9 (if not already as such). And when displaying it transforms from 0-9 into the user's localized representation, if different. We only do this for user input and program generated numbers. We don't do it for numbers that are explicitly in the text. IMHO, text should be displayed as is. (For ICU's Javadoc on it see: http://icu-project.org/apiref/icu4j/com/ibm/icu/text/ArabicShaping.html).--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

::Here is [http://www.code2000.net/numbersutf.htm A Table of Numbers] in various scripts from Arabic to Tibetan (and more). [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

== Archiving ==
"Archiving" means what? Removal to another location? Compression? Consider whether this is a feature that is actually important to users in their process of making a decision between front ends--not just an attempt at one-upping. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 01:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Osk - if you mistook this table as one-upmanship then you are badly mistaken. I tried to unravel the narrative everyone seems to give about their frontend. Archiving is GS tem for keeping modules out of sight but available. It does what it says on the tin. BT has (I think) a different solution to the same concern. The tables are quite obviously increasingly not anymore for first time users, but that is quite irrelevant. We can always finally extract the core points for a message to users, but there are other uses for these tables possible too - for developers, for translators - where to concentrate effort etc [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Xiphos's concept of archiving is different than what is explained here. It does not actually 'hide' the module; it will still be available after archiving. Archiving zips up the module (preserving correct paths) so that it can be easily transferred to another machine. This is handy for user-created modules if you want to share them with someone else, and will probably be an integral part of future plans to allow uploading modules. Also, you can archive a module, then remove it (which would also affect other apps). Xiphos provides no way for 'hiding' without complete removal (although it probably should). However, the archiving feature is unique and provides benefit to end users. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Complex Scripts ==
What does "Complex Scripts" mean in this context? When people talk about complex scripts, they're not generally talking about basic things like Arabic shaping. They generally mean things like contextual shaping of Indic or rising baseline Arabic calligraphy. And this feature could have differing values for a single front end, depending on the platform. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think originally Peter meant support for Myanmar which BibleCS lacks. I take issue with the notation (with Uniscribe) because I *have* Uniscribe, and have told BibleCS to use a font that I *know* has the correct symbols, yet BibleCS can still not display the text. --[[User:mwtalbert|mwtalbert]]
::: This is a bad misunderstanding or misquote. I never singled out BibleCS in this matter. All frontends failed BurJudson, some worse some less bad. The level of support can clearly not always get answered with simply yes/no. But as such it is an important matter - as some frontends are constitutionally incapable of rendereing such scripts and others require additional work (which is fine if it works) [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 23:04, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::So, should we change the category "Complex Scripts" to "BurJudson works"? I could release a module (assuming I could get permission, that is) that would universally fail because none of the existing front ends can support its writing system. Would we then mark all front ends as not supporting complex scripts?
::The notation about Uniscribe is more descriptive than a "yes" or "no", since the best possible result any front end can report is support of ''some'' complex scripts. Unless I'm simply mistaken (which is certainly possible) and BibleCS's RTF control doesn't actually use Uniscribe, the failure to correctly render BurJudson is simply indicative of Uniscribe not completely supporting that script yet. (I will investigate whether I'm wrong about Uniscribe.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 20:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

If you could explain how you managed to get BibleCS to do anything more than display little boxes for the text in BurJudson, I'd be interested in knowing. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 04:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: I just updated BurJudson to expect [http://scripts.sil.org/Padauk Padauk] by default so following an update or manual font change it should work for you, but prior to that it had required the [http://www.thanlwinsoft.org/ThanLwinSoft/Downloads/Fonts/PadaukOT-2.1.exe PadaukOT font]. The latter has since been discontinued since SIL added OT tables to their font. If you have another Unicode font with Myanmar support, you will have to set it either in the .conf directly or via the module preferences panel. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I expected that when I changed all the Bible texts to use Padauk it would attempt to use that for BurJudson. Apparently it doesn't work that way. I changed the .conf to use Paduak instead of PadaukOT and it works now (at least to the point of showing the characters, I didn't check specific rendering issues).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

It should probably be mentioned, since BurJudson is being taken as indicative of complex script rendering capability, that Myanmar text is probably the least likely to exhibit correct rendering of any script. Myanmar was first added to Unicode at version 4.0 in 2003. Apparently no one liked the encoding model, so it was radically changed in Unicode 5.1 (released last April). As a result documents may not be updated to Unicode 5.1 encoding (I doubt BurJudson has been)--although many fonts have already been updated to Unicode 5.1's Myanmar encoding model (Padauk and PadaukOT both are). Furthermore, text layout engines may or may not be updated. (I would guess that Graphite has been updated, but the latest Uniscribe has not.) So it would be reasonable to expect a bit of chaos within the world of Myanmar text for the next couple years. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: Fair point. Do we have any other module which tests well the same concepts? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:: I'm (slowly) working on a script demo module, which will include an entry for each script identified in [http://unicode.org/iso15924/iso15924-codes.html ISO 15924]. I had intended it for testing transliteration facilities, but we can also use it to test rendering in general. More immediately, the UDHR module contains texts in many languages, using many scripts, a good portion of them complex (though about 80% of the entries are probably either Latin or Cyrillic). Notably, UDHR contains the same Myanmar text encoded using the Unicode 4.0 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 5)) and the Unicode 5.1 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 6)). --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 10:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I also think the column should go into module support next to the RtoL support - I will do this later today. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Image GenBook support ==
Users do not know what GenBook means. Are images really unsupported in any kind of module type? --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:There is a bug in Bible Desktop, that has been fixed in SVN, that did not properly determine the proper display a Dictionary (LD) with images that is also marked Category=Maps. BD/JSword support all image types that Java can render. I don't know what that is, but at least it includes all the types that we would use in a module.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

== Image Formats / other Image Module support ==
These are not things that an end-user cares about. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
: I agree. I think this can be generalized to a bigger issue. Karl has a wonderful repository of non-official, very useful modules. These may show problems in end-user applications. For example, if his map modules have png images, then there is some front-end that does not support it. The user cares about available modules working or not working.
: I already mentioned the Bible Desktop bug regarding LD image modules marked as Maps. While I routinely test JSword/BD against all CrossWire modules, I don't against Karl's repository. Given it's visibility and value, I think I should.
: The bigger question is how do we note short-comings/bugs in a particular application? I don't think this is the appropriate venue. (Though I don't mind JSword being called out as lagging SWORD.)--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I have to run to church right now, but as soon as I get a chance, I'm going to nuke the whole Images category down to a single, uninformative "Supports Images" column, universally marked with "yes". --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

What was this, Osk? I have restored the section and would appreciate if it stays up. This section has meaning and is reflected in existing modules [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

To be clear this is not about bugs but about frontend limitations - so once it is clear that all frontends can actually deal with all module types then the point simply gets deleted and amalgamated in the "all frontends do xyz" list. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:All front ends support basically the same set of features, with respect to images, in either their current release or in SVN. And these are not end-user concerns, they are developer concerns. Users don't know which format module images use or which kind of module they will appear in, they simply expect content they download to work. So this whole section is completely unnecessary to users. Front end developers don't need it either, since all limitations have already been worked around (namely, the SVN versions of all front ends should now support JPEG & PNG images in all module types). (I don't consider other formats necessary, so we won't ever release content that uses other image formats.) The particulars of which versions of various front ends support which formats & which module types may be useful to content developers, but I can advise them of that during the submission process, and this need not be included as part of a feature matrix aimed at end users. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Do they? If all frontends (at current svn level) can have all module types laced with images this column will obviously go the same way as any other column which is all round "yes". Wrt image formats - svg is the one notable format which brings enormous benefits (due to its translatability) , so svg support is something which is valuable. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

There are already modules that have images in gif format, so I think it should be listed. Not sure why it should *never* be supported. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Study Notes ==
What are study notes in the tagging section? [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 09:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:Study notes are simply a text editor type note taking facility which then can get exported - e.g. for sermon preparation. This could have gone just as well to '''other''', or where ever, but in the end it is often the final result of a search and bookmarking exercise that you go and write something up which tyou then print and take somewhere else. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 22:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::Personal study notes in a multi-user OS may be ''global'' (all users see them) or ''individual'' (current user sees only his/her own). Could we include a table row that shows which applies? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== BibleCS Portability ==
BibleCS is not properly portable. For once I'm not even applying the stringent PortableApps.com "stealth" requirements. It depends on some libraries (which they are escapes me) and controls which may not be installed on the local user's machine. Also, it leaves stuff all over the place in the registry, and registers itself and so on in a way which leaves orphaned entries in the registry in a most horrible way. What I really complain about though is the fact that on some computers, it won't even just be "Just Works™". For reference on some issues, see [http://portableapps.com/node/10582 this thread] on PortableApps.com. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 10:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:I have just read the thread and I don't think it applies. BibleCS is properly portable wrt to the registry, but it takes some work. First, one has to install it to the default location, which uses the registry. Then one copies c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to a thumb drive. Then it is un-installed from the local machine. This is a one time operation. Second, the user has to use the built-in module installer and not the windows modules downloaded from CrossWire in Windows format. The latter uses the registry. Is it this specific path that prevents the "Just Works". It would be simple enough to zip the contents of that directory and make it available as a portable download. Would that qualify as "Just Works"?
:As to the library problem, if you can recall them that would be great. This it the first I have heard of this.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::It registers all sorts of messy things... in my books, that ruins it, but it still Just Works™. See my comment a bit lower down as to the rest. Absolute paths can be a big problem though. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:You can't recall which libraries it requires because it doesn't. Everything needed by BibleCS is contained within its directory. It writes a few registry entries, but does not need them for its own functioning (only for private protocol calls). And those registry entries really could be deleted upon exit, if desired. So if you move BibleCS around to computers other than that to which it was installed, it will work perfectly fine. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::Got a feeling it was the rich text component or something. The protocol and executable registration is a nuisance as well, and I'd need to test whether it was really dependant on these - if so, it's unlikely to run as a limited user on a new machine. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

FWIW I consider this discussion a bit beside the point. If something runs off a USB drive it is portable in all practical sense. If it leaves a little bit of bit-garbage behind then it is still ''portable'', but not ''securely portable'' in the sense that no one will ever know you used it there - but that is a second matter. If the reason that you do not want to leave anything behind is indeed your physical or job security then even portable apps has a massive problem - and that is teh fact that USB drives get logged by Windows - at least if you do a half decent set-up. The only way to securely (in that particular sense) deploy an application is by running it off a bootable CD. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 08:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to get involved in this discussion, as it doesn't matter to me at all. However, I just uninstalled BibleCS from my Windows 7 computer, and it left icudt38.dll, InstallManager.exe, and userprefs.conf in the installation directory. Perhaps something is wrong in the uninstaller? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:small addition. I could not find any registry keys left behind. Also, I performed the uninstall on XP, and it left the same files behind, although the installer briefly flashed that it was uninstalling InstallManager.exe. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 05:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

::My opinion as the original author of the installer: The uninstaller leaving modules and application generated content is not a bug. But leaving icudt38.dll and InstallManager.exe is. Conceptually the installer installs two parts: BibleCS specific parts (the executables and their dlls) and shareable parts (i.e. locales.d, the modules and other things that all SWORD apps can use). I think it should have an option regarding the shareable parts. It probably should put these elsewhere and not in "The SWORD Project" directory.

:::My personal opinion is that leaving anything at all under Program Files is a bug. As a user, I would expect to be able to delete that and not delete my personal preferences as I would expect them to be stored with all my other application preferences. That's beside the point here. If it helps any, I did choose to leave the shared parts during both uninstalls. Perhaps InstallManager.exe and icudt38.dll got put in the wrong place in the uninstall script?--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll try again. [[User:Osk|Osk]] reverted my correction last time I did it. BibleCS, when run from a USB disk, '''will''' leave stuff behind; for starters (I haven't done a full scan, but these are the ones I remember and found):

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\sword.exe (put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\SharedDLLs\[install path]\sword.exe (not sure, probably put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\sword (sword:// protocol, put in by BibleCS, not sure if BibleCS depends on it)

If any of these are created by BibleCS if they are not there, which they are, then it '''does''' leave traces on the host machine.

Perhaps we could also say "don't use the Install Manager", as I understand it just plain doesn't work (it was the main reason Kevin Porter abandoned The SWORD Project for Windows Portable). At least, though, can we remove the word "no" in "leaves no traces on host machine" once more? [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

: No, actually, no I didn't. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 15:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:: It was me who changed this. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:Chris, did you find these keys on a computer that did not have them after running sword.exe or InstallManager.exe from the USB drive? I find that hard to believe. My experience, if you use the installer to install it to a USB device, it will leave traces on the computer on which you did the install. But if you install it temporarily to a computer and copy c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to the USB drive and then use that USB drive on a different computer, it should not change the registry of that machine. AFAIR, it is the installer that puts these keys into the registry, not the program. AFAIR, the InstallManager.exe does not change the registry, either. This program will use the mods.d and modules folder in the same directory to write it's modules.

:: In the thread last year "[GnomeSword-developers] win32 installer for testing", Chris Little said: "I'm not sure whether you're setting the private protocol handler in the installer or in the GS app, but you should be aware that BibleCS sets the handler to call itself every time it is launched. (It also sets the private protocol handler used by Logos iff it is not already set.)". So just based on that I would say it does set registry entries on startup, not on install. Not sure about installmanager, though [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 02:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll put together a PortableApps version of BibleCS this weekend so that we can put the whole issue to rest. No need to continue debating, but continue if it makes you happy. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Windowing and Text Display ==

I have taken out the Complex Scripts bit and shoved into Module support - it belongs more into that category. The narrative for windows display I think is best expressed in an adequate screenshot. The relevant principles which can be answerd with yes/no are - so far, I think, please add
# Un/linkable texts - e.g Commentary and Bible or several Bibles (both needs to be present - linking and unlinking)
# Parallel display of whole passages in a side by side fashion,
# the ability to hide unneeded Windows/screen areas.
# The ability to have several texts of a kind open at different books/chapters and being able to switch forward and backward
# Unconnected passages on one tab/window

A fair number of BD's list of Others is conceptually also an expression of verse lists

[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

What exactly is meant by poetry display here? Xiphos does display poetry with the correct line breaks and indentation (as in the module, but not exactly as the printed ESV as BPB does)--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Installer ==
Refdoc, I see that you have that BibleCS's installer sorts modules by language. I don't see that. I see it by type only.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
:Have I? mistake. This layout of the table is much better, but i still get confused occasionally. Please do check. Thanks [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] Sorted. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

==Soon?==

I really do not like "soon" as an entry. What is the cut off point for soon? I'd rather that things are yes/no/partial/not applicable and once something is implemented it will change to yes. Otherwise we will have a totally meaningless table. My honest/humble opinion. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 13:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I had a second look at what you marked as soon and I think this is actually fair enough - but I remarked it as partial. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 14:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I think soon or planned are fine categories, but it needs to have specific meaning. To me "soon" means that the capability is in beta and is generally available for testing. Perhaps, "beta" would be better than "soon" and it would have a link to the beta. To me "planned" means that the feature has been checked into source code control and will be part of the next release. Right now we have "yes" with footnotes stating this or that will be available with 1.5.12. Perhaps, "ready" would be better than "planned".--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Indexed Search ==

We have listed the technology, but what are the practical differences? Do all applications index on the same fields? Presumably yes, in which case the technology should be come an internal like other toolkits used. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 16:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The practical outworkings of above technological differences could/should form simply new rows - like crossboundary searches etc.[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

I agree with the new rows. Not sure what they should be.

Compared to SWORD (with key, body and strong), JSword indexes these and additional fields, allowing:
* note:(Abraham) - Find verses with notes about Abraham
* xref:(John 3:16) - Find verses with cross-references to John 3:16. (JSword will normalize the reference to an OSIS ID.)
* heading:(Moses) - Find verses with headings containing Moses.
JSword indexes also allow stemmed searches. It also has different analyzers for different languages. Our Thai analyzer, is necessary to get the word breaks correctly.

The other thing that a search engine bring is a search syntax. Each is different. CLucene and Lucene have the same syntax. I presume BPBible and MacSword have a different one.

Even with Lucene and CLucene, there are differences. JSword can use a SWORD index, but SWORD can't use a JSword index. The reason is that JSword is using Lucene 2.x and Clucene is compatible with 1.4.x. These have different storage formats. CLucene will never catch up with Lucene. We moved away from 1.4.x for outrageous performance gains.

The other thing that JSword has (and I think some others do) is passage restricted searching. This is layered on top of the search engine. If there is a different engine being used by an app, this feature might not be there.

That an app uses Lucene/CLucene/Apple Search/Custom is not a user concern, but it's impact is. One impact of MacSword using Apple's search is that it is available to Spotlight, the global search of the Mac. This is awesome!
--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 18:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Which make sme think whether at least Linux applications could not do the same - beagle etc. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 18:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

In addition to this, BibleTime also indexes several fields that Xiphos and SPW do not. I believe they include the fields that JSword indexes. This is an important distinction, and one where the official Sword indexing is lagging behind these others (at least as regards fields indexed, but it's a definite negative imo) As far as I know, only Xiphos and SPW are using the official Sword indexing --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==

The second table under this heading should be transposed, and should use abbreviations for the frontend applications. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:No. It is the source table for the first table it is the last table not completely imported into the vertical format. Once completely imported it will get deleted. Reason for the delay being thet I a) had no time for it yet and b) there are some things which do not add up in my testing [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 19:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

== Do any frontends or modules also install fonts? ==

Another question to ask of each application is, "Do any frontends or modules also install fonts?". [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::none do as far as I am aware [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:::The Xiphos Windows installer does install fonts --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if this is what was meant. More rather would/could the programme chase up needed fonts and download them. Or did I misunderstand you David? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

The program FlashCards (Greek/Hebrew learning tool) will load a font without installing them to the local OS. Not installing them locally is important for PortableApps' "leave no trace." I've thought of adding this capability to JSword and distribute some SIL fonts with it. It would be cool to be able to specify by URL some fonts to download. My thought it that we would host a open source fonts on the CrossWire server and serve them as we do modules and a new conf's entry FontSource would provide that URL.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Display of information about the source text? ==

Frontends differ in the amount of information they display about the source text for each module, and on how they manage this. This too needs a comparison chart. It's especially important for textual provenance and copyright status, etc. It is a chore to always have to refer to the CrossWire downloads page. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
:Among the frontends with which I am familiar, BD does this very nicely. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Syncrhonized scrolling? ==

Do all frontends that support parallel texts also provide an optional setting for synchronized vertical scrolling? If not, please compare. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::do any? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
::BD, MS, SPW, (others?) show their parallel Bibles in the same pane with a single scroll bar. BD also allows for commentaries to be shown in parallel view. So all of these have synchronized vertical scrolling. In BD (and perhaps the others) you can choose to show Bibles in different views (tabs or windows) and each has their own scroll bar. From what I have heard, but not seen, I believe Xiphos is unique in that you can tie any two verse number based views together (i.e. Bibles and/or Commentaries) and scrolling one will scroll the other so that they show the same material (in so far as is possible).
:::If Xiphos has this, I do not know how to do it :) I've considered adding a feature like this and would like to sometime, but it is not there now.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::I should add that Xiphos does allow parallel scrolling in the same manner as others. Not with commentary (yet).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== GIFs ==

I removed the note about GIF in graphics format support, changing it to JPEG only. I can see no reasonable reason to support GIF in Sword. PNG is far superior at all of the things GIF was previously used for. You can achieve the same or better quality with greater compression using PNG rather than GIF. Also, we don't actually support GIF on BibleCS, though it would take about 10 minutes to add support for it. (None of this has anything to do with the patents that encumbered GIF in the past, since they're all expired.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 00:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:As I noted above, there are already modules using GIF; there may be cases where content is already in GIF, in which case it's perhaps easiest to just leave it that way. If it's trivial to add it, why not just add it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

::To my knowledge, there is only one module using GIFs, and it's not CrossWire content. Material in GIFs can be bulk converted to PNGs. The only officially supported image file format is JPEG (although the first image test module actually consisted of BMPs). I think it's very reasonable to expand that to include PNGs, since they are useful in a variety of circumstances where JPEG is an inferior choice. But I can't see anything that GIF offers that PNG doesn't do better. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there is one argument I can see for (whatever not officially supported) image format - and that is copyright restrictions. Stuff like "distribute at will, but do not change in any form or way". Having said this I have not come across this wrt image formats and would consider a limitation of formats which ensures that all frontends can make equal use of it is a useful thing. What might be worthwhile though - and that goes way beyond this particular comparison page is a test module with every semi-relevant image format under the sun thrown in and then we could map which frontends (and not just the PC/Mac) ones can deal with them. It is clear that Webkit and Xul derrived fronends are pretty limitless in their support, while others might be a lot more restricted. It would be good to know. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Osk, this is a strong statement, even though I agree with it. I think that our "module making" guide should be explicit in stating "Only use jpeg now and after 1.5.12, you can also use png. Using any other kind of image will result in a module that cannot be used in one or more SWORD applications. Submission of a module with other image formats will hinder its acceptance into the CrossWire repository as such images will need to be converted into a supported format."--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 13:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== BpBible and font handling ==
<s>I think there is some serious misunderstanding here - unless I do not understand BpBible or do something seriously wrong. When I run BpBible I can change the fonts used to display material. But I can '''not''' set a font for a specific module - FarTPV with Nazli while ESV with Times new Roman. This is meant with font per module - or All Farsi modules get to use Nazli while all English ones use Sans Serif. The font handling of BpBible does not work when e.g. an Armenian module and a Farsi commentary is open as there is no font handling both languages. So I reverted Ben's contribution here. </s>[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 00:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Are you using 0.4? It does this. [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 00:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::refdoc: file->set fonts--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
<s>.Yes I use 0.4. But using file-setfonts results in all texts on dispolay changing their font. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]</s>
Sorry, my apologies Ben - I had downloaded 0.4 but was using 0.3 on this laptop. I test on a couple of different machines and got mixed up. This is now corrected. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Software & module updates - checking for updates via a proxy server? ==

If your frontend is installed on a computer that accesses the internet via a proxy server, when the application checks for either software updates or module updates, one of the features we should expect is whether this has configurable support for access via a proxy server. Please compare on this. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:For an example of a program that does this nicely, see [http://www.docu-track.com/home/prod_user/PDF-XChange_Tools/pdfx_viewer PDF-XChange Viewer]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think all which use a module manager do this.

Xiphos does not allow specifying a proxy server and I have not seen such a feature in any of the other programs. In linux, Xiphos should pick this up from the environment. On Windows, I do not know what the behavior would be. For Xiphos, I suspect that this would be something that would have to be added to the engine, although I don't know for sure. Perhaps there is an environment variable that curl will pick up. Although we haven't had reports yet, this is something that concerns me. I know from experience that configuring a program to use FTP through one or more firewalls, plus a proxy server is very difficult, particularly when the program doesn't allow setting the proxy manually but expects the environment to handle it. So in summary, no not all which use the module manager do this, certainly not Xiphos. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that the first time I ever used GnomeSword, I was behind a proxy (this was in linux, of course). I don't believe I ever got it working properly.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I just realized that BibleDesktop does allow specifying a proxy server. I believe this was why I first used BD rather than one of the other frontends. Kudos, DM --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]], thank you. The other thing that we do is http rather than ftp. Many firewalls block ftp but not http. (We still have the old ftp code lying around, but it was being blocked by XP SP2) So when we added http we also added proxy.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 04:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Friendly dates? ==

What is meant by friendly dates? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
:23 of February instead of 02.23 [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:Also it should be in the user's language.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Footnote expansion ==

The reported "1221 character limit" in BibleCS footnotes is an issue somewhat--and there's a fairly simple fix that we put out in some test builds back when the NET was being encoded. But it should be borne in mind that the NET, as encoded, is not official CrossWire content and warnings were given at the time it was produced about long footnotes. It's not clear to me that this is really a failing in BibleCS, rather that the NET is badly encoded (and I know others have the same opinion, if for other reasons, such as bad character encoding). So, ability to display improperly long footnotes should be fixed in BibleCS, but the single case where this arises as a problem should also be repaired. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 19:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

::This problem is not just for the NET. I have seen other things truncated, such as Strong's entries. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 21:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay... I spent a couple minutes testing this and can explain the behavior. There is no "1221 character limit". Firstly, there's no set character limit, there's actually a size limit, which depends on the text itself unless you use a monospaced font and which depends on the font size you use itself. Almost all notes, Strong's entries, etc. will display fine, assuming you don't increase the font size. But I have verified that Eccl 1.1 note 1, the longest note in NET according to Karl, does still get truncated. So I still think BibleCS should apply the NOTES commentary virtual module that we tested briefly. And I still think the NET is poorly encoded. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::one of the first things I do is increase the font size. You're saying that it shouldn't be considered a bug if you can read it without increasing the font size. This is fairly horrible program design in my opinion. It is surely something I would want to know as a user. Again, I haven't actually tried the NET, I saw this with other notes. See, for example, http://picasaweb.google.com/ransom1982/Gnomesword#5277582407118819138. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

:::So I tried it at my preferred font size of 14pt. It truncates after about 15 lines, which happens fairly frequently for the NETfree I was testing, and for strong's references routinely for another module I have. This module is not using the default strong's but one with somewhat longer definitions (privately created). In addition, with NETfree, many of the Greek words were unreadable in the footnotes. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

: Well--my bad for having implemented this and then deleted or lost it, but I dug through the mailing list archives for the discussion of virtual modules and think it should be fairly easy to re-create the NOTES commentary virtual module. Some further discussion of this and other virtual modules here: [[Whiteboard/Virtual_Modules]]. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-08T09:26:40Z

Mwtalbert: /* Footnote expansion */ Picture showing BibleCS popup issue

== Project Links ==
For the front end links, we need to choose either links to homepages or links to wiki pages, not both. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

== Localization ==
I would recommend not listing that front ends can be localized. I don't think that actually matters to any users. What is important, and hence what we should list, is the existing list of UI localizations for each front end. (Ability to display RtoL text is a separate issue, independent of UI localization, so I think that's fine to keep.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

:The original intention of each entry in the table was/is that it gets removed if a feature is present in all frontends. This one means little to end users , but it means something to translators and developers. If we can find out whether SwordBible can get translated easily then all are localisable and the feature should be listed above the table.

Does localization extend to using different numerals for chapter & verse navigation & verse markers ? Or do some Frontends retain digits 0...9 even when everything else is localized? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think BD is the only one that does bi-directional number shaping. That is the user can type in localized digits and BD will shape it into 0-9 (if not already as such). And when displaying it transforms from 0-9 into the user's localized representation, if different. We only do this for user input and program generated numbers. We don't do it for numbers that are explicitly in the text. IMHO, text should be displayed as is. (For ICU's Javadoc on it see: http://icu-project.org/apiref/icu4j/com/ibm/icu/text/ArabicShaping.html).--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

::Here is [http://www.code2000.net/numbersutf.htm A Table of Numbers] in various scripts from Arabic to Tibetan (and more). [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 15:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

== Archiving ==
"Archiving" means what? Removal to another location? Compression? Consider whether this is a feature that is actually important to users in their process of making a decision between front ends--not just an attempt at one-upping. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 01:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Osk - if you mistook this table as one-upmanship then you are badly mistaken. I tried to unravel the narrative everyone seems to give about their frontend. Archiving is GS tem for keeping modules out of sight but available. It does what it says on the tin. BT has (I think) a different solution to the same concern. The tables are quite obviously increasingly not anymore for first time users, but that is quite irrelevant. We can always finally extract the core points for a message to users, but there are other uses for these tables possible too - for developers, for translators - where to concentrate effort etc [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Xiphos's concept of archiving is different than what is explained here. It does not actually 'hide' the module; it will still be available after archiving. Archiving zips up the module (preserving correct paths) so that it can be easily transferred to another machine. This is handy for user-created modules if you want to share them with someone else, and will probably be an integral part of future plans to allow uploading modules. Also, you can archive a module, then remove it (which would also affect other apps). Xiphos provides no way for 'hiding' without complete removal (although it probably should). However, the archiving feature is unique and provides benefit to end users. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Complex Scripts ==
What does "Complex Scripts" mean in this context? When people talk about complex scripts, they're not generally talking about basic things like Arabic shaping. They generally mean things like contextual shaping of Indic or rising baseline Arabic calligraphy. And this feature could have differing values for a single front end, depending on the platform. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:I think originally Peter meant support for Myanmar which BibleCS lacks. I take issue with the notation (with Uniscribe) because I *have* Uniscribe, and have told BibleCS to use a font that I *know* has the correct symbols, yet BibleCS can still not display the text. --[[User:mwtalbert|mwtalbert]]
::: This is a bad misunderstanding or misquote. I never singled out BibleCS in this matter. All frontends failed BurJudson, some worse some less bad. The level of support can clearly not always get answered with simply yes/no. But as such it is an important matter - as some frontends are constitutionally incapable of rendereing such scripts and others require additional work (which is fine if it works) [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 23:04, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::So, should we change the category "Complex Scripts" to "BurJudson works"? I could release a module (assuming I could get permission, that is) that would universally fail because none of the existing front ends can support its writing system. Would we then mark all front ends as not supporting complex scripts?
::The notation about Uniscribe is more descriptive than a "yes" or "no", since the best possible result any front end can report is support of ''some'' complex scripts. Unless I'm simply mistaken (which is certainly possible) and BibleCS's RTF control doesn't actually use Uniscribe, the failure to correctly render BurJudson is simply indicative of Uniscribe not completely supporting that script yet. (I will investigate whether I'm wrong about Uniscribe.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 20:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

If you could explain how you managed to get BibleCS to do anything more than display little boxes for the text in BurJudson, I'd be interested in knowing. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 04:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: I just updated BurJudson to expect [http://scripts.sil.org/Padauk Padauk] by default so following an update or manual font change it should work for you, but prior to that it had required the [http://www.thanlwinsoft.org/ThanLwinSoft/Downloads/Fonts/PadaukOT-2.1.exe PadaukOT font]. The latter has since been discontinued since SIL added OT tables to their font. If you have another Unicode font with Myanmar support, you will have to set it either in the .conf directly or via the module preferences panel. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I expected that when I changed all the Bible texts to use Padauk it would attempt to use that for BurJudson. Apparently it doesn't work that way. I changed the .conf to use Paduak instead of PadaukOT and it works now (at least to the point of showing the characters, I didn't check specific rendering issues).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

It should probably be mentioned, since BurJudson is being taken as indicative of complex script rendering capability, that Myanmar text is probably the least likely to exhibit correct rendering of any script. Myanmar was first added to Unicode at version 4.0 in 2003. Apparently no one liked the encoding model, so it was radically changed in Unicode 5.1 (released last April). As a result documents may not be updated to Unicode 5.1 encoding (I doubt BurJudson has been)--although many fonts have already been updated to Unicode 5.1's Myanmar encoding model (Padauk and PadaukOT both are). Furthermore, text layout engines may or may not be updated. (I would guess that Graphite has been updated, but the latest Uniscribe has not.) So it would be reasonable to expect a bit of chaos within the world of Myanmar text for the next couple years. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: Fair point. Do we have any other module which tests well the same concepts? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:: I'm (slowly) working on a script demo module, which will include an entry for each script identified in [http://unicode.org/iso15924/iso15924-codes.html ISO 15924]. I had intended it for testing transliteration facilities, but we can also use it to test rendering in general. More immediately, the UDHR module contains texts in many languages, using many scripts, a good portion of them complex (though about 80% of the entries are probably either Latin or Cyrillic). Notably, UDHR contains the same Myanmar text encoded using the Unicode 4.0 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 5)) and the Unicode 5.1 model (called BURMESE (UNICODE 6)). --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 10:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I also think the column should go into module support next to the RtoL support - I will do this later today. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Image GenBook support ==
Users do not know what GenBook means. Are images really unsupported in any kind of module type? --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:There is a bug in Bible Desktop, that has been fixed in SVN, that did not properly determine the proper display a Dictionary (LD) with images that is also marked Category=Maps. BD/JSword support all image types that Java can render. I don't know what that is, but at least it includes all the types that we would use in a module.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

== Image Formats / other Image Module support ==
These are not things that an end-user cares about. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
: I agree. I think this can be generalized to a bigger issue. Karl has a wonderful repository of non-official, very useful modules. These may show problems in end-user applications. For example, if his map modules have png images, then there is some front-end that does not support it. The user cares about available modules working or not working.
: I already mentioned the Bible Desktop bug regarding LD image modules marked as Maps. While I routinely test JSword/BD against all CrossWire modules, I don't against Karl's repository. Given it's visibility and value, I think I should.
: The bigger question is how do we note short-comings/bugs in a particular application? I don't think this is the appropriate venue. (Though I don't mind JSword being called out as lagging SWORD.)--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:: I have to run to church right now, but as soon as I get a chance, I'm going to nuke the whole Images category down to a single, uninformative "Supports Images" column, universally marked with "yes". --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

What was this, Osk? I have restored the section and would appreciate if it stays up. This section has meaning and is reflected in existing modules [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

To be clear this is not about bugs but about frontend limitations - so once it is clear that all frontends can actually deal with all module types then the point simply gets deleted and amalgamated in the "all frontends do xyz" list. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:All front ends support basically the same set of features, with respect to images, in either their current release or in SVN. And these are not end-user concerns, they are developer concerns. Users don't know which format module images use or which kind of module they will appear in, they simply expect content they download to work. So this whole section is completely unnecessary to users. Front end developers don't need it either, since all limitations have already been worked around (namely, the SVN versions of all front ends should now support JPEG & PNG images in all module types). (I don't consider other formats necessary, so we won't ever release content that uses other image formats.) The particulars of which versions of various front ends support which formats & which module types may be useful to content developers, but I can advise them of that during the submission process, and this need not be included as part of a feature matrix aimed at end users. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Do they? If all frontends (at current svn level) can have all module types laced with images this column will obviously go the same way as any other column which is all round "yes". Wrt image formats - svg is the one notable format which brings enormous benefits (due to its translatability) , so svg support is something which is valuable. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 09:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

There are already modules that have images in gif format, so I think it should be listed. Not sure why it should *never* be supported. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Study Notes ==
What are study notes in the tagging section? [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 09:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:Study notes are simply a text editor type note taking facility which then can get exported - e.g. for sermon preparation. This could have gone just as well to '''other''', or where ever, but in the end it is often the final result of a search and bookmarking exercise that you go and write something up which tyou then print and take somewhere else. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 22:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

::Personal study notes in a multi-user OS may be ''global'' (all users see them) or ''individual'' (current user sees only his/her own). Could we include a table row that shows which applies? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== BibleCS Portability ==
BibleCS is not properly portable. For once I'm not even applying the stringent PortableApps.com "stealth" requirements. It depends on some libraries (which they are escapes me) and controls which may not be installed on the local user's machine. Also, it leaves stuff all over the place in the registry, and registers itself and so on in a way which leaves orphaned entries in the registry in a most horrible way. What I really complain about though is the fact that on some computers, it won't even just be "Just Works™". For reference on some issues, see [http://portableapps.com/node/10582 this thread] on PortableApps.com. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 10:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
:I have just read the thread and I don't think it applies. BibleCS is properly portable wrt to the registry, but it takes some work. First, one has to install it to the default location, which uses the registry. Then one copies c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to a thumb drive. Then it is un-installed from the local machine. This is a one time operation. Second, the user has to use the built-in module installer and not the windows modules downloaded from CrossWire in Windows format. The latter uses the registry. Is it this specific path that prevents the "Just Works". It would be simple enough to zip the contents of that directory and make it available as a portable download. Would that qualify as "Just Works"?
:As to the library problem, if you can recall them that would be great. This it the first I have heard of this.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::It registers all sorts of messy things... in my books, that ruins it, but it still Just Works™. See my comment a bit lower down as to the rest. Absolute paths can be a big problem though. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:You can't recall which libraries it requires because it doesn't. Everything needed by BibleCS is contained within its directory. It writes a few registry entries, but does not need them for its own functioning (only for private protocol calls). And those registry entries really could be deleted upon exit, if desired. So if you move BibleCS around to computers other than that to which it was installed, it will work perfectly fine. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 18:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
::Got a feeling it was the rich text component or something. The protocol and executable registration is a nuisance as well, and I'd need to test whether it was really dependant on these - if so, it's unlikely to run as a limited user on a new machine. [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

FWIW I consider this discussion a bit beside the point. If something runs off a USB drive it is portable in all practical sense. If it leaves a little bit of bit-garbage behind then it is still ''portable'', but not ''securely portable'' in the sense that no one will ever know you used it there - but that is a second matter. If the reason that you do not want to leave anything behind is indeed your physical or job security then even portable apps has a massive problem - and that is teh fact that USB drives get logged by Windows - at least if you do a half decent set-up. The only way to securely (in that particular sense) deploy an application is by running it off a bootable CD. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 08:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to get involved in this discussion, as it doesn't matter to me at all. However, I just uninstalled BibleCS from my Windows 7 computer, and it left icudt38.dll, InstallManager.exe, and userprefs.conf in the installation directory. Perhaps something is wrong in the uninstaller? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 03:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:small addition. I could not find any registry keys left behind. Also, I performed the uninstall on XP, and it left the same files behind, although the installer briefly flashed that it was uninstalling InstallManager.exe. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 05:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

::My opinion as the original author of the installer: The uninstaller leaving modules and application generated content is not a bug. But leaving icudt38.dll and InstallManager.exe is. Conceptually the installer installs two parts: BibleCS specific parts (the executables and their dlls) and shareable parts (i.e. locales.d, the modules and other things that all SWORD apps can use). I think it should have an option regarding the shareable parts. It probably should put these elsewhere and not in "The SWORD Project" directory.

:::My personal opinion is that leaving anything at all under Program Files is a bug. As a user, I would expect to be able to delete that and not delete my personal preferences as I would expect them to be stored with all my other application preferences. That's beside the point here. If it helps any, I did choose to leave the shared parts during both uninstalls. Perhaps InstallManager.exe and icudt38.dll got put in the wrong place in the uninstall script?--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll try again. [[User:Osk|Osk]] reverted my correction last time I did it. BibleCS, when run from a USB disk, '''will''' leave stuff behind; for starters (I haven't done a full scan, but these are the ones I remember and found):

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\sword.exe (put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\SharedDLLs\[install path]\sword.exe (not sure, probably put in by BibleCS)

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\sword (sword:// protocol, put in by BibleCS, not sure if BibleCS depends on it)

If any of these are created by BibleCS if they are not there, which they are, then it '''does''' leave traces on the host machine.

Perhaps we could also say "don't use the Install Manager", as I understand it just plain doesn't work (it was the main reason Kevin Porter abandoned The SWORD Project for Windows Portable). At least, though, can we remove the word "no" in "leaves no traces on host machine" once more? [[User:Chris Morgan|Chris Morgan]] 06:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

: No, actually, no I didn't. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 15:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:: It was me who changed this. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

:Chris, did you find these keys on a computer that did not have them after running sword.exe or InstallManager.exe from the USB drive? I find that hard to believe. My experience, if you use the installer to install it to a USB device, it will leave traces on the computer on which you did the install. But if you install it temporarily to a computer and copy c:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project to the USB drive and then use that USB drive on a different computer, it should not change the registry of that machine. AFAIR, it is the installer that puts these keys into the registry, not the program. AFAIR, the InstallManager.exe does not change the registry, either. This program will use the mods.d and modules folder in the same directory to write it's modules.

:: In the thread last year "[GnomeSword-developers] win32 installer for testing", Chris Little said: "I'm not sure whether you're setting the private protocol handler in the installer or in the GS app, but you should be aware that BibleCS sets the handler to call itself every time it is launched. (It also sets the private protocol handler used by Logos iff it is not already set.)". So just based on that I would say it does set registry entries on startup, not on install. Not sure about installmanager, though [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 02:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll put together a PortableApps version of BibleCS this weekend so that we can put the whole issue to rest. No need to continue debating, but continue if it makes you happy. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 06:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Windowing and Text Display ==

I have taken out the Complex Scripts bit and shoved into Module support - it belongs more into that category. The narrative for windows display I think is best expressed in an adequate screenshot. The relevant principles which can be answerd with yes/no are - so far, I think, please add
# Un/linkable texts - e.g Commentary and Bible or several Bibles (both needs to be present - linking and unlinking)
# Parallel display of whole passages in a side by side fashion,
# the ability to hide unneeded Windows/screen areas.
# The ability to have several texts of a kind open at different books/chapters and being able to switch forward and backward
# Unconnected passages on one tab/window

A fair number of BD's list of Others is conceptually also an expression of verse lists

[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

What exactly is meant by poetry display here? Xiphos does display poetry with the correct line breaks and indentation (as in the module, but not exactly as the printed ESV as BPB does)--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Installer ==
Refdoc, I see that you have that BibleCS's installer sorts modules by language. I don't see that. I see it by type only.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
:Have I? mistake. This layout of the table is much better, but i still get confused occasionally. Please do check. Thanks [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] Sorted. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

==Soon?==

I really do not like "soon" as an entry. What is the cut off point for soon? I'd rather that things are yes/no/partial/not applicable and once something is implemented it will change to yes. Otherwise we will have a totally meaningless table. My honest/humble opinion. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 13:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I had a second look at what you marked as soon and I think this is actually fair enough - but I remarked it as partial. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 14:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I think soon or planned are fine categories, but it needs to have specific meaning. To me "soon" means that the capability is in beta and is generally available for testing. Perhaps, "beta" would be better than "soon" and it would have a link to the beta. To me "planned" means that the feature has been checked into source code control and will be part of the next release. Right now we have "yes" with footnotes stating this or that will be available with 1.5.12. Perhaps, "ready" would be better than "planned".--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 14:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Indexed Search ==

We have listed the technology, but what are the practical differences? Do all applications index on the same fields? Presumably yes, in which case the technology should be come an internal like other toolkits used. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 16:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The practical outworkings of above technological differences could/should form simply new rows - like crossboundary searches etc.[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

I agree with the new rows. Not sure what they should be.

Compared to SWORD (with key, body and strong), JSword indexes these and additional fields, allowing:
* note:(Abraham) - Find verses with notes about Abraham
* xref:(John 3:16) - Find verses with cross-references to John 3:16. (JSword will normalize the reference to an OSIS ID.)
* heading:(Moses) - Find verses with headings containing Moses.
JSword indexes also allow stemmed searches. It also has different analyzers for different languages. Our Thai analyzer, is necessary to get the word breaks correctly.

The other thing that a search engine bring is a search syntax. Each is different. CLucene and Lucene have the same syntax. I presume BPBible and MacSword have a different one.

Even with Lucene and CLucene, there are differences. JSword can use a SWORD index, but SWORD can't use a JSword index. The reason is that JSword is using Lucene 2.x and Clucene is compatible with 1.4.x. These have different storage formats. CLucene will never catch up with Lucene. We moved away from 1.4.x for outrageous performance gains.

The other thing that JSword has (and I think some others do) is passage restricted searching. This is layered on top of the search engine. If there is a different engine being used by an app, this feature might not be there.

That an app uses Lucene/CLucene/Apple Search/Custom is not a user concern, but it's impact is. One impact of MacSword using Apple's search is that it is available to Spotlight, the global search of the Mac. This is awesome!
--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 18:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Which make sme think whether at least Linux applications could not do the same - beagle etc. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 18:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

In addition to this, BibleTime also indexes several fields that Xiphos and SPW do not. I believe they include the fields that JSword indexes. This is an important distinction, and one where the official Sword indexing is lagging behind these others (at least as regards fields indexed, but it's a definite negative imo) As far as I know, only Xiphos and SPW are using the official Sword indexing --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 18:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==

The second table under this heading should be transposed, and should use abbreviations for the frontend applications. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:No. It is the source table for the first table it is the last table not completely imported into the vertical format. Once completely imported it will get deleted. Reason for the delay being thet I a) had no time for it yet and b) there are some things which do not add up in my testing [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 19:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

== Do any frontends or modules also install fonts? ==

Another question to ask of each application is, "Do any frontends or modules also install fonts?". [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::none do as far as I am aware [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:::The Xiphos Windows installer does install fonts --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 20:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if this is what was meant. More rather would/could the programme chase up needed fonts and download them. Or did I misunderstand you David? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

The program FlashCards (Greek/Hebrew learning tool) will load a font without installing them to the local OS. Not installing them locally is important for PortableApps' "leave no trace." I've thought of adding this capability to JSword and distribute some SIL fonts with it. It would be cool to be able to specify by URL some fonts to download. My thought it that we would host a open source fonts on the CrossWire server and serve them as we do modules and a new conf's entry FontSource would provide that URL.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 12:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Display of information about the source text? ==

Frontends differ in the amount of information they display about the source text for each module, and on how they manage this. This too needs a comparison chart. It's especially important for textual provenance and copyright status, etc. It is a chore to always have to refer to the CrossWire downloads page. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 19:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
:Among the frontends with which I am familiar, BD does this very nicely. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== Syncrhonized scrolling? ==

Do all frontends that support parallel texts also provide an optional setting for synchronized vertical scrolling? If not, please compare. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 20:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::do any? [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
::BD, MS, SPW, (others?) show their parallel Bibles in the same pane with a single scroll bar. BD also allows for commentaries to be shown in parallel view. So all of these have synchronized vertical scrolling. In BD (and perhaps the others) you can choose to show Bibles in different views (tabs or windows) and each has their own scroll bar. From what I have heard, but not seen, I believe Xiphos is unique in that you can tie any two verse number based views together (i.e. Bibles and/or Commentaries) and scrolling one will scroll the other so that they show the same material (in so far as is possible).
:::If Xiphos has this, I do not know how to do it :) I've considered adding a feature like this and would like to sometime, but it is not there now.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::I should add that Xiphos does allow parallel scrolling in the same manner as others. Not with commentary (yet).--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 22:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== GIFs ==

I removed the note about GIF in graphics format support, changing it to JPEG only. I can see no reasonable reason to support GIF in Sword. PNG is far superior at all of the things GIF was previously used for. You can achieve the same or better quality with greater compression using PNG rather than GIF. Also, we don't actually support GIF on BibleCS, though it would take about 10 minutes to add support for it. (None of this has anything to do with the patents that encumbered GIF in the past, since they're all expired.) --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 00:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:As I noted above, there are already modules using GIF; there may be cases where content is already in GIF, in which case it's perhaps easiest to just leave it that way. If it's trivial to add it, why not just add it? --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

::To my knowledge, there is only one module using GIFs, and it's not CrossWire content. Material in GIFs can be bulk converted to PNGs. The only officially supported image file format is JPEG (although the first image test module actually consisted of BMPs). I think it's very reasonable to expand that to include PNGs, since they are useful in a variety of circumstances where JPEG is an inferior choice. But I can't see anything that GIF offers that PNG doesn't do better. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 03:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there is one argument I can see for (whatever not officially supported) image format - and that is copyright restrictions. Stuff like "distribute at will, but do not change in any form or way". Having said this I have not come across this wrt image formats and would consider a limitation of formats which ensures that all frontends can make equal use of it is a useful thing. What might be worthwhile though - and that goes way beyond this particular comparison page is a test module with every semi-relevant image format under the sun thrown in and then we could map which frontends (and not just the PC/Mac) ones can deal with them. It is clear that Webkit and Xul derrived fronends are pretty limitless in their support, while others might be a lot more restricted. It would be good to know. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

Osk, this is a strong statement, even though I agree with it. I think that our "module making" guide should be explicit in stating "Only use jpeg now and after 1.5.12, you can also use png. Using any other kind of image will result in a module that cannot be used in one or more SWORD applications. Submission of a module with other image formats will hinder its acceptance into the CrossWire repository as such images will need to be converted into a supported format."--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 13:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== BpBible and font handling ==
<s>I think there is some serious misunderstanding here - unless I do not understand BpBible or do something seriously wrong. When I run BpBible I can change the fonts used to display material. But I can '''not''' set a font for a specific module - FarTPV with Nazli while ESV with Times new Roman. This is meant with font per module - or All Farsi modules get to use Nazli while all English ones use Sans Serif. The font handling of BpBible does not work when e.g. an Armenian module and a Farsi commentary is open as there is no font handling both languages. So I reverted Ben's contribution here. </s>[[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]] 00:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Are you using 0.4? It does this. [[User:Benpmorgan|Benpmorgan]] 00:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::refdoc: file->set fonts--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 00:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
<s>.Yes I use 0.4. But using file-setfonts results in all texts on dispolay changing their font. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]</s>
Sorry, my apologies Ben - I had downloaded 0.4 but was using 0.3 on this laptop. I test on a couple of different machines and got mixed up. This is now corrected. [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]

== Software & module updates - checking for updates via a proxy server? ==

If your frontend is installed on a computer that accesses the internet via a proxy server, when the application checks for either software updates or module updates, one of the features we should expect is whether this has configurable support for access via a proxy server. Please compare on this. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:For an example of a program that does this nicely, see [http://www.docu-track.com/home/prod_user/PDF-XChange_Tools/pdfx_viewer PDF-XChange Viewer]. [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I think all which use a module manager do this.

Xiphos does not allow specifying a proxy server and I have not seen such a feature in any of the other programs. In linux, Xiphos should pick this up from the environment. On Windows, I do not know what the behavior would be. For Xiphos, I suspect that this would be something that would have to be added to the engine, although I don't know for sure. Perhaps there is an environment variable that curl will pick up. Although we haven't had reports yet, this is something that concerns me. I know from experience that configuring a program to use FTP through one or more firewalls, plus a proxy server is very difficult, particularly when the program doesn't allow setting the proxy manually but expects the environment to handle it. So in summary, no not all which use the module manager do this, certainly not Xiphos. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that the first time I ever used GnomeSword, I was behind a proxy (this was in linux, of course). I don't believe I ever got it working properly.--[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I just realized that BibleDesktop does allow specifying a proxy server. I believe this was why I first used BD rather than one of the other frontends. Kudos, DM --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 23:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]], thank you. The other thing that we do is http rather than ftp. Many firewalls block ftp but not http. (We still have the old ftp code lying around, but it was being blocked by XP SP2) So when we added http we also added proxy.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 04:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Friendly dates? ==

What is meant by friendly dates? [[User:David Haslam|David Haslam]] 18:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
:23 of February instead of 02.23 [[User:Refdoc|refdoc]]:[[User_Talk:Refdoc|talk]]
:Also it should be in the user's language.--[[User:Dmsmith|Dmsmith]] 20:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Footnote expansion ==

The reported "1221 character limit" in BibleCS footnotes is an issue somewhat--and there's a fairly simple fix that we put out in some test builds back when the NET was being encoded. But it should be borne in mind that the NET, as encoded, is not official CrossWire content and warnings were given at the time it was produced about long footnotes. It's not clear to me that this is really a failing in BibleCS, rather that the NET is badly encoded (and I know others have the same opinion, if for other reasons, such as bad character encoding). So, ability to display improperly long footnotes should be fixed in BibleCS, but the single case where this arises as a problem should also be repaired. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 19:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

::This problem is not just for the NET. I have seen other things truncated, such as Strong's entries. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 21:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay... I spent a couple minutes testing this and can explain the behavior. There is no "1221 character limit". Firstly, there's no set character limit, there's actually a size limit, which depends on the text itself unless you use a monospaced font and which depends on the font size you use itself. Almost all notes, Strong's entries, etc. will display fine, assuming you don't increase the font size. But I have verified that Eccl 1.1 note 1, the longest note in NET according to Karl, does still get truncated. So I still think BibleCS should apply the NOTES commentary virtual module that we tested briefly. And I still think the NET is poorly encoded. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 02:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

::one of the first things I do is increase the font size. You're saying that it shouldn't be considered a bug if you can read it without increasing the font size. This is fairly horrible program design in my opinion. It is surely something I would want to know as a user. Again, I haven't actually tried the NET, I saw this with other notes. See, for example, http://picasaweb.google.com/ransom1982/Gnomesword#5277582407118819138. --[[User:Mwtalbert|Mwtalbert]] 09:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

: Well--my bad for having implemented this and then deleted or lost it, but I dug through the mailing list archives for the discussion of virtual modules and think it should be fairly easy to re-create the NOTES commentary virtual module. Some further discussion of this and other virtual modules here: [[Whiteboard/Virtual_Modules]]. --[[User:Osk|Osk]] 08:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-07T21:22:17Z

Mwtalbert: /* Footnote expansion */

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-05T23:58:21Z

Mwtalbert: /* Software & module updates - checking for updates via a proxy server? */ BD does allow specifying proxy

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-05T23:55:42Z

Mwtalbert: /* Software & module updates - checking for updates via a proxy server? */

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-05T23:41:49Z

Mwtalbert: /* Software & module updates - checking for updates via a proxy server? */ No, not all which use a module manager do this

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-05T22:28:04Z

Mwtalbert: /* Syncrhonized scrolling? */

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-05T22:12:04Z

Mwtalbert: /* Syncrhonized scrolling? */ Xiphos doesn't support this (that I know of)

Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-05T01:00:14Z

Mwtalbert: /* Module Support */ BPBible works just as well as SPW for Burmese

==Introduction==
This page is under development. As such it may not be helpful until it is near completion. For that reason, please don't link it on another page until then. To become complete it needs fair and balanced™ coverage of the SWORD programs.

Do feel free to edit this page to make it more complete and better organized.

The purpose of this page is to help an end user decide which SWORD program is the best for them. The first consideration is which programs are available for the user. This can be found at [http://www.crosswire.org CrossWire's home page]. Once the user has narrowed down which programs are available, the following can be used to focus on the best program.

It is recommended that each user try all the available programs. It is likely that one will resonate with the user and work best for that user.

==Features Common to All SWORD Applications==
For the most part all the SWORD programs have the same features.
* Uses Unicode
* Released under an open source license
* Powerful search syntax - wildcard, regex and often also clucene indexed searches (fuzzy and proximity searches + searches for Strong's, stemming etc) within preset and customised scopes.
* Strong's, morphological info, cross references and footnotes
* All frontends listed below are undergoing more or less active development.
* Verse and block layout
* Image support in all types of modules
* Localisation - all frontends are designed to be readily translatable. Many are translated in various languages.

==Side-by-Side Comparison of Notable SWORD Applications==
=== Legends ===
To keep the lists below compact, the SWORD programs are identified by abbreviations. Here is an explanation of each of them:
*'''ABS''' - [http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ AlKitab Bible Study] based on JSword, uses Java 5+
*'''BD''' - [[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop]] based on JSword, uses Java 1.4.2+
*'''BT''' - [http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] uses cross-platform Qt toolkit
*'''BPB''' - [http://bpbible.com BPBible] uses wxPython
*'''FB''' - [http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible] based on JSword, runs in FireFox as an extension
*'''MS''' - [[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
*'''SPW''' - [[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
*'''SB''' - [http://swordwarrior.net/ SwordBible]
*'''Xi''' - [[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])

A blank entry means that it is unknown whether a feature is present.

This is a work in progress. Footnotes are automatically numbered.

=== Operating Systems and Portability===

{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Runs on Windows 95/98/NT/ME'''

! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}}<ref>Not Win9x</ref>!! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"{{
| '''Runs on Windows 2000/XP/Vista/7'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{part}}<ref name="prealpha"> Pre-alpha</ref>!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Runs on Mac OS X 10.3+'''

! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}<ref>version 1.3.x</ref>!! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Runs on Mac OS X 10.4+'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{part}}<ref name="prealpha"/>!! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}<ref>version 1.4.x</ref>!! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Runs on Linux'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Runs on other Unix'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}<ref>BSD, Solaris</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''Can be installed to run from USB drive'''

! {{no}}
! {{yes}}<ref>[http://www.crosswire.org/~dmsmith/bd/ Portable] both in the sense that it can be carried in ones pocket and in the sense that it runs on Windows, Mac or Linux, requiring nothing from the host computer and leaving no trace on it.</ref>
! {{no}}
! {{yes}}<ref>[http://PortableApps.com/BPBiblePortable PortableApps.com edition] for Windows only. Leaves no trace on host computer.</ref>
! {{yes}}<ref>Using [http://PortableApps.com/FirefoxPortable Mozilla Firefox, Portable Edition] from PortableApps.com, for Windows only, but depends on a local installation of Java. Leaves no trace on host computer. Other platforms are possible.</ref>
! {{yes}}<ref>Leaves traces on host computer.</ref>
! {{yes}}<ref>Temporarily install to a computer and then copy the "C:\Program Files\CrossWire\The SWORD Project" folder to the USB drive. Finally, uninstall it and delete install directory. Leaves no traces on host computer.</ref>
! {{no}}
! {{no}}
|}

<references/>

=== Module Support ===
{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Daily Devotions Start with Today'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Daily Devotions Show Friendly Dates'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Shows Testament Introductions'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! !! {{no}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !!
|-valign="top"
| '''Shows Book Introductions'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Shows Chapter Introductions'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Personal Commentary'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}<ref name="exportable">exportable as a SWORD module</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''Journal'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}<ref name="exportable"/>
|-valign="top"
| '''Right to Left Texts'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Complex Scripts'''

! !! !! !! {{part}}<ref>To the extent that Uniscribe supports a given script</ref> !! !! !! {{part}}<ref>To the extent that Uniscribe supports a given script</ref> !! !! {{yes}}<ref>with pango-graphit installed</ref>
|}

<references/>
'''Right to Left texts''' - Arabic, Farsi, Hebrew and other modules Right-to-Left scripts are displayed from right-to-left and correctly shaped. 
'''Daily Devotions''' - While all SWORD applications support Daily Devotions modules, some open a Daily Devotion to the current day. 
'''Introductions''' - Some modules contain Testament, Book and Chapter introductions. Some SWORD applications do not handle them. 
'''User Editable Module Content''' - The application supports the Personal Commentary and may allow other types of module creation. 
'''Complex Scripts''' - The application can display correctly [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmic_family_of_scripts Brahmic, Indic, and related scripts] (or other scripts of similar layout) - subject to availability of adequate fonts and standardized Unicode

=== Module Management ===
{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Integrated module manager'''

! {{yes}}<ref name="plugins">via plugins</ref>!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{part}}<ref>Zip installer for locally available modules only</ref> !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Module unlocking support'''<ref>The application allows the user to supply the unlock key. The user does not have to manually edit the module's conf file.</ref>

! {{yes}}<ref name="plugins"/>!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Multiple download repositories'''<ref>Integrated installer allows download from more than one SWORD module repository.</ref>

! {{yes}}<ref name="plugins"/>!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{n/a}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Local Repositories (e.g. CrossWire CD)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Downloaded modules are available immediately without restart'''

! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{n/a}} !! {{yes}}<ref>After repository refresh.</ref>!! {{no}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''User is warned of internet access'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{n/a}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''User is advised about download size'''

! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{n/a}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! !! !! {{yes}}<ref>Xiphos will extract info from repository if provided</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''User can continue working while download is in progress'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{n/a}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Download can be canceled'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{n/a}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{part}}
|-valign="top"
| '''User is warned if module already exists.'''

! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! !! !! {{yes}} <ref> installed modules are highlighted</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''User is notified of module updates'''

! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''User is notified of new modules'''

! !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{n/a}} !! !! !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Hiding/Showing installed modules'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Modules sorted by type'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Modules are further sorted by language'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! !! {{no}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Modules can be archived/exported'''<ref>Packages a module into SWORD's shareable "Raw Zip" format.</ref>

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Companion Module support'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|}

<references/>

=== Image Module Support ===
{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| ''' Image Resizing'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''JPEG format'''<ref>All full-featured SWORD applications should already have support for this types.</ref>

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| ''' PNG format'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}}<ref> PNG support will be available in 1.5.12 upwards</ref> !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| ''' SVG format'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{yes}}
|}
<references/>

=== Windowing and Text Display ===

{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Window Layout flexible'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Un/Linkable'''<ref> open text panes can by user choice be linked or unlinked and will then move together to the next reference</ref>

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{part}} <ref>commentary can be set separately but will then always move with bible</ref> !! {{n/a}} !! !! !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Parallel Display'''<ref>several bible +/-commentary texts can be displayed in a set of parallel columns</ref>

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Multiple texts'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Poetry Layout'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} <ref> 2 level indentation</ref>!! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}<ref>not indented</ref>!! !! {{yes}} <ref> 2 level indentation</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''Ruby Layout'''<ref>A not-yet-released SWORD 1.5.12 feature. Used for Japanese texts.</ref>

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}} !! !! !! !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Module default font'''<ref>Used if the font is installed</ref>

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Font settable per module'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Font settable per language'''

! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! !! !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Transliteration'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}}<ref>This is available if compiled with ICU.</ref> !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|}
<references/>

=== Search and Dictionary ===
{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Able to create a search index'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}<ref>automatically created searching a module first time</ref> !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Able to delete a search index'''

! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! !! {{n/a}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''User can continue to use application while index is being created'''

! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Indexed Search'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}<ref>requires another J-Sword installation to create indices</ref>!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Cross Verse Proximity Search'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}<ref>allowing phrases across verse boundaries</ref>!! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''indexed Strong, Morphology and Body search'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}!! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''indexed CrossRef search'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !!{{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''indexed Note and Heading search'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Fuzzy search'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''GenBook and Commentary search'''

! !! !! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Combined module search'''

! !! {{no}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}<ref>creation of lists of modules to be searched together</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''Search scopes'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Automatic/On-Mouse Strongs/Morphology lookup'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Automatic/On-Mouse Glossary lookup'''

! !! !! !! !! !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|}
<references/>

=== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ===

{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Bookmarks, Verselists or Tags'''

! !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}<ref>utilises FF bookmarking system</ref> !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Manual adding'''

! !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Bulk adding of Search result'''

! !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Permanent'''

! !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Hierarchical'''

! !! !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Drag and drop management'''

! !! !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{n/a}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Exportable'''

! !! !! !! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''User comments'''

! !! !! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Study Notes'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !!{{yes}}
|}

<references/>

=== Session and State Management ===
{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Layout stored'''

! !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !!
|-valign="top"
| '''Interface language'''

! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Open Modules'''

! !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Search Results'''

! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!
|-valign="top"
| '''Storing of multiple Sessions'''

! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! {{yes}}
|}

=== Help System ===

{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Manual, English'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Manual, Other'''

! !! !! !! {{no}} !! !! !! !! !! {{yes}}<ref> French</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''Active links to online help'''

! !! !! !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! !! {{yes}}<ref>IRC, Mailing lists, bug tracker</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''Tooltips'''

! !! {{yes}} !! !! {{yes}} !! !! !! !! !! {{yes}}
|}
<references/>

=== Localization ===
The following table lists all languages for which at least two applications are available. The remaining languages are listed in footnotes. Only languages with at least 70% of the user interface translated are listed.

{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD <ref>Chinese, classic and simplified</ref>
! title="BibleTime" | BT <ref>Dansk (Danish)</ref>
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS <ref>Svensk (Swedish)</ref>
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW <ref>Afrikaans, Magyar (Hungarian), Slovenščina (Slovenian)</ref>
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi <ref>עברית (Hebrew), Nederlands (Dutch)</ref>
|-valign="top"
| '''GUI RtoL Support'''<ref>Layout flips from Left-to-Right layout to Right-to-Left based on user's locale.</ref>

! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''English'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Deutsch (German)'''

! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} <ref> BPBible 0.4.1 will have a German translation </ref> !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Português (Portuguese)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Suomi (Finnish)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''فارسی (Persian)'''

! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}!! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''日本語 (Japanese)'''

! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)'''

! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !!{{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)'''

! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Français (French)'''

! {{no}} !! !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Česky (Czech)'''

! {{no}} !!{{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !!{{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Español (Spanish)'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Polski (Polish)'''

! {{no}} !!{{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}}
|}
<references/>

=== Other ===
{|border="1" class="sortable"
! width="250px" | Feature
! title="AlKitab Bible Study" | ABS
! title="Bible Desktop" | BD
! title="BibleTime" | BT
! title="BPBible" | BPB
! title="FireBible" | FB
! title="MacSword" | MS
! title="The SWORD Project for Windows" | SPW
! title="SwordBible" | SB
! title="Xiphos" | Xi
|-valign="top"
| '''Extramodular Bible Reading Plan'''

! {{yes}} !! {{yes}} !! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Other extramodular content'''

! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}<ref>Bible Study HOWTO</ref> !!{{yes}} <ref>Gospel Harmonies, Guess the Verse game</ref> !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} <ref>Topical verse lists</ref> !! {{no}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Read aloud'''

! {{no}} !! {{part}}<ref name="maconly">On MacOS 10.3+ only</ref>!! !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}} !! {{no}} !! {{no}} !! {{yes}}
|-valign="top"
| '''Other features not listed otherwise'''

! !! !! !! {{yes}}<ref>Display Strong's headwords</ref> !! !! !! !! !! {{yes}}<ref>Pseudo-interlinear display of Strong's/morphology; commentary by chapter; lexdict mouse-hover content-to-previewer; tab-able parallel window; passage exporter</ref>
|}
<references/>

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-05T00:47:44Z

Mwtalbert: /* BpBible and font handling */

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-05T00:47:33Z

Mwtalbert: /* GIFs */

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-05T00:45:45Z

Mwtalbert: /* BpBible and font handling */

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-05T00:33:41Z

Mwtalbert: /* Image Formats / other Image Module support */ Why was gif taken out?

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-04T20:59:14Z

Mwtalbert: /* Do any frontends or modules also install fonts? */ Xiphos Windows installer installs fonts

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-03T22:16:13Z

Mwtalbert: /* Archiving */ Explanation of Xiphos archival

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-03T22:12:17Z

Mwtalbert: /* Windowing and Text Display */ What is meant by poetry display?

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-03T18:15:55Z

Mwtalbert: /* BibleCS Portability */

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-03T18:09:53Z

Mwtalbert: /* Indexed Search */

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-03T05:54:11Z

Mwtalbert: /* BibleCS Portability */

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-03T03:29:12Z

Mwtalbert: /* Complex Scripts */

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-03T03:27:18Z

Mwtalbert: /* BibleCS Portability */

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-02T04:43:59Z

Mwtalbert: /* Complex Scripts */

Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-02T03:23:14Z

Mwtalbert: /* Module Manager Support */

=Introduction=
This page is under development. As such it may not be helpful until it is near completion. For that reason, please don't link it on another page until then. To become complete it needs fair and balanced™ coverage of the SWORD programs.

Do feel free to edit this page to make it more complete and better organized.

The purpose of this page is to help an end user decide which SWORD program is the best for them. The first consideration is which programs are available for the user. This can be found at [http://www.crosswire.org CrossWire's home page]. Once the user has narrowed down which programs are available, the following can be used to focus on the best program.

It is recommended that each user try all the available programs. It is likely that one will resonate with the user and work best for that user.

=Features Common to All SWORD Applications=
For the most part all the SWORD programs have the same features.
* Use Unicode
* Released under an open source license
* powerful search syntax - wildcard, regex and often also clucene indexed searches (fuzzy and proximity searches + searches for Strong's, stemming etc) within preset and customised scopes.
* Strong's, morphological info, cross references and footnotes
* All frontends listed beleow are undergoing more or less active development.
* verse and block layout
* image support in GenBook type modules

=Side-by-Side Comparison of Leading SWORD Applications=
== Module Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|RtoL Modules
!width="9%"|Daily Devotions
!width="9%"|Book/Chapter Introductions
!width="9%"|User Editable Module Content
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java 1.4.2+ 
Windows 98SE or later 
Mac 10.3 or later 
Linux, BSD, etc.
|yes
|yes (automatic) Displays date in user's language.
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|yes
|yes
|
|Personal Commentary
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|no
|yes (automatic)
|partial, not books
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|yes
|yes
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|yes
|yes
|yes
|Personal Commentary
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|yes
|yes
|Personal Commentary
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|yes (automatic)
|yes
|Personal Commentary, Journal, all exportable
|-valign="top" 
|SwordBible
|Windows
|yes
|yes (automatic)
|no
|no
|}
'''RtoL Modules''' - Arabic, Farsi, Hebrew and other modules Right-to-Left scripts are displayed from right-to-left. 
'''Daily Devotions''' - While all SWORD applications support Daily Devotions modules, some integrate Daily Devotions more fully. 
'''Book/Chapter Introductions''' - Some modules contain Book and Chapter introductions. Some SWORD applications do not handle them. 
'''User Editable Module Content''' - The application supports the Personal Commentary and may allow other types of module creation.

== Module Manager Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Locked Modules (via GUI)
!width="9%"|Multiple Repositories
!width="9%"|Archiving/Hiding
!width="9%"|Indexing
!width="9%"|New Content Immediately Available?
!width="9%"|Other Features
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|yes (plugins)
|yes (plugins)
|no
|yes
|no
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|yes
|yes
|no
|yes
|yes
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|
|
|yes
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|yes
|no
|no
|yes
|
|zip installer, download from CrossWire only
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|no
|no
|no
|no
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|no
|yes
|no
|yes
|after repo refresh
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|yes
|yes
|yes
|yes
|no
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|yes
|yes
|yes
|yes
|yes
|Show available updates, Show uninstalled modules.
|-valign="top" 
|SwordBible
|
|yes
|
|no
|
|no
|}
'''Locked Modules (via GUI)''' - The application allows the user to supply the unlock key. The user does not have to manually edit the module's conf file. 
'''Multiple Repositories''' - The application has an integrated module installer that allows installation from more than one SWORD module repository. 
'''Archiving/Hiding''' - The application can remove and safely store currently non required modules or otherwise remove them from sight, keeping them available for future use, 
'''Indexing''' - The application is able to index the module for fast search. This may be automatic and not require any user interaction (e.g. clicking a "Create Search Index" button). 
'''New Content Available Immediately''' - Modules that are downloaded with the application's module installer are immediately available for use.

== Image Module Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|non GenBook Image Module Support
!width="9%"|Image Formats
!width="9%"|Image Resizing
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|no
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Images supported in all modules
|All image formats allowed to be in a SWORD module. With support for all images supported by Java.
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|yes
|all supported by WebKit (png, jpeg, tiff, bmp, ...)
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Images can be incorporated into all module types
|png (in version 1.5.12+), jpg, bmp
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|All modules
|png, jpg, tiff, gif, bmp
|yes
|}

*'''Non Genbook Image support''' - The application can use images in commentaries, dictionaries or Bible texts
*'''image formats''' - which graphic formats can be displayed. Some non CrossWire modules will use graphic formats which are not supported by all programmes.
*'''image resizing''' -

== Windowing and Display ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Window Layout
!width="9%"|Several texts open at same time?
!width="9%"|Poetry Layout
!width="9%"|Complex Scripts
!width="9%"|Ruby layout
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Two-pane with tabs and library navigation on right
|yes
|yes
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Two-pane with tabs and library navigation on right
|yes
|yes
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Multiple windows with flexible arrangement and library navigation on left
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
| 1-7 tiled subwindows, repositioning/hiding of panes.
| no
| yes (two-level poetry, indented, verse numbers at side)
|Arabic - fail
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|1 or 2 panes (library navigation in Firefox sidebar)
|
|yes
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|Multi-window, each module gets it's window
| yes
| no
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Three-pane with tabbed library navigation
| only using Parallel display for Bibles
| yes, but not indented
| depends on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniscribe Uniscribe]
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Four-pane with library navigation, verse lists, etc. on left, multiple tabs, separate dialogs, saved sessions
| yes
| yes
|Arabic - yes, Myanmar - partial fail (on Mozembed)
|
|}
*'''Complex Scripts''' - Whether the application can deal with complex ( e.g. Hindi/Burmese style) scripts, provided an adequate font is installed

== Search and Dictionary ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Indexed Search Features
!width="9%"|Cross Verse Proximity Search
!width="9%"|GenBook and Commentary search
!width="9%"|several module search
!width="9%"|Dictionary Look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|Strong's + parsing (automatic) and Manual look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|Strong's + parsing (automatic) and Manual look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|CLucene
|
|
|
|Strong's + parsing (automatic)
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Custom
|yes (allowing phrases across verse boundaries)
|yes
|no
|Strong's + parsing (automatic) full list of topics with topic entry box
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|Manual look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
| Apple SearchKit
|no
|yes
|no
|Strong's, Morph (automatic)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|CLucene
|no
|yes
|no
|Strong's + parsing (automatic) and glossary (on click)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|CLucene
|no
|yes
|yes (create lists of modules to search)
|Strong's + parsing automatic, glossary (on click)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible |SwordBible]]
|no
|no
|yes
|no
| Strong's, Morph and glossary on click
|}

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Permanent Bookmarks, Tags or Verse Lists
!width="9%"|Nestable
!width="9%"|With Comments
!width="9%"|Exportable
!width="9%"|Study Notes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|manual and search result
|
|
|
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|manual and search result
|
|
|
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|
|
|
|
| yes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|manual and search result
|yes
|yes
|yes
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|
|
|
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|manual and search result
|yes
|yes
|no
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|manual and search result
|yes
|no
|
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|manual and search result
|yes
|no
|no
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible |SwordBible]]
|
|no
|
|
|yes
|}

== Localization ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Localization Support
!width="9%"|GUI RtoL Support
!width="9%"|GUI Languages
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|yes
|yes
|English, Indonesian
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|yes
|yes
|English, German, Farsi, Chinese, Vietnamese
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|yes
|no
|English, Vietnamese
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|
|
|English
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|yes
|?
|English, German, Frensh, Finnish, Spanish, Swedish, Polish, Portuguese
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|yes
|no
|Afrikaans, Česky, Deutsch, English, Suomi, Magyar, Bahasa Indonesia, 日本語, Polski, Português, Slovenščina
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|yes
|yes
|English, German, French, Finnish, Farsi, Czech, Hebrew, Dutch, Portuguese, Swedish
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible|SwordBible]]
|
|
|English
|}

== Other ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Portable
!width="9%"|Extramodular Content
!width="9%"|Other
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|
|Bible Reading Plan
|word-by-word comparison of Bible versions
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|[http://www.crosswire.org/~dmsmith/bd/ Portable version]
| Bible Reading Plan
| word-by-word comparison of Bible versions
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|
|Bible Study HOWTO
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|[http://PortableApps.com/BPBiblePortable PortableApps.com edition]
|gospel harmonies; Guess the Verse game;
|display Strong's headwords;
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|portable, but leaves data on host computer
|
|read aloud
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
| Portable, and with some effort, will leave no trace on host computer.
|
| parallel verse display, transliteration
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|
|
|Read Aloud, pseudo-interlinear display of Strong's/morphology, transliteration into Latin characters
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible | SwordBible]]
|portable
|Verse lists with prefilled topics, One year daily reading plans
|
|}

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-01T19:17:07Z

Mwtalbert: /* Complex Scripts */

Talk:Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-01T19:15:09Z

Mwtalbert: /* "update"? */

Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-01T05:57:08Z

Mwtalbert: /* Windowing and Display */

=Introduction=
This page is under development. As such it may not be helpful until it is near completion. For that reason, please don't link it on another page until then. To become complete it needs fair and balanced™ coverage of the SWORD programs.

Do feel free to edit this page to make it more complete and better organized.

The purpose of this page is to help an end user decide which SWORD program is the best for them. The first consideration is which programs are available for the user. This can be found at [http://www.crosswire.org CrossWire's home page]. Once the user has narrowed down which programs are available, the following can be used to focus on the best program.

It is recommended that each user try all the available programs. It is likely that one will resonate with the user and work best for that user.

=Features Common to All SWORD Applications=
For the most part all the SWORD programs have the same features.
* Use Unicode
* Released under an open source license
* powerful search syntax - wildcard, regex and often also clucene indexed searches (fuzzy and proximity searches + searches for Strong's, stemming etc) within preset and customised scopes.
* Strong's, morphological info, cross references and footnotes
* All frontends listed beleow are undergoing more or less active development.
* verse and block layout

=Side-by-Side Comparison of Leading SWORD Applications=
== Module Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Unlock Locked Modules (via GUI)
!width="9%"|RtoL Modules
!width="9%"|Daily Devotions
!width="9%"|Book/Chapter Introductions
!width="9%"|User Editable Module Content
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|yes
|yes
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|yes] (automatic)
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|yes
|yes
|
|Personal Commentary
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|no
|yes (automatic)
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|no
|yes
|
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|yes
|yes
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|yes
|yes
|yes
|Personal Commentary
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|yes
|yes (automatic)
|yes
|Personal Commentary, Journal, all exportable
|-valign="top" 
|SwordBible
|Windows
|
|yes
|yes (automatic)
|no
|no
|}

== Module Manager Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Locked Modules (via GUI)
!width="9%"|Multiple Repositories
!width="9%"|Archiving
!width="9%"|Indexing
!width="9%"|New Content Immediately Available?
!width="9%"|Other Features
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|no
|yes
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|no
|no
|yes
|
|zip installer, download from CrossWire only
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|no
|no
|no
|no
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|yes
|
|yes
|no
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|yes
|yes
|
|yes
|Show available updates, Show uninstalled modules.
|-valign="top" 
|SwordBible
|Windows
|
|yes
|
|no
|
|no
|}

== Image Module Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Image GenBook Support
!width="9%"|Other Image Module Support
!width="9%"|Image Formats
!width="9%"|Image Resizing
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|no
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|Images can be incorporated into all module types
|png (in version 1.5.12+), jpg, bmp
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|All modules
|png, jpg, tiff, gif, bmp
|yes
|}

== Windowing and Display ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Window Layout
!width="9%"|Several texts open at same time?
!width="9%"|Poetry Layout
!width="9%"|Complex Scripts (test with Burmese module ([http://www.crosswire.org/wiki/Fonts#Burmese.2FMyanmar font]))
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Two-pane with tabs and library navigation on right
|yes
|yes
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Two-pane with tabs and library navigation on right
|yes
|yes
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|Multiple windows with flexible arrangement and library navigation on left
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
| 1-7 tiled subwindows, repositioning/hiding of panes.
| no
| yes
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|1 or 2 panes (library navigation in Firefox sidebar)
|
|yes
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|Multi-window, each module gets it's window
| yes
| no
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|Three-pane with tabbed library navigation
| only using Parallel display for Bibles
| yes, but not indented
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|Four-pane with library navigation, verse lists, etc. on left, multiple tabs, separate dialogs, saved sessions
| yes
| yes
|yes
|}

== Search and Dictionary ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Indexed Search Features
!width="9%"|Cross Verse Proximity Search
!width="9%"|GenBook and Commentary search
!width="9%"|several module search
!width="9%"|Dictionary Look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|Manual look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|CLucene
|
|
|
|Strong's + parsing (automatic)
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
| Custom
|yes
|no
|no
|Strong's + parsing (automatic) full list of topics with topic entry box
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|Manual look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
| grouping, Strong's, Morph, Apple SearchKit
|
|
|
|Strong's, Morph (automatic)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|CLucene
|no
|yes
|no
|Strong's + parsing (automatic) and glossary (on click)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|CLucene
|no
|yes
|yes (create lists of modules to search)
|Strong's + parsing automatic, glossary (on click)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible |SwordBible]]
|Windows
|no
|no
|Yes
|no
| Strong's, Morph and glossary on click
|}

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Permanent Bookmarks, Tags or Verse Lists
!width="9%"|Nestable
!width="9%"|With Comments
!width="9%"|Exportable
!width="9%"|Study Notes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|manual and search result
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|manual and search result
|
|
|
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|
| yes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|manual and search result
|no
|yes
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|manual and search result
|yes
|no
|
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|manual and search result
|yes
|no
|no
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible |SwordBible]]
|
|
|
|
|
|yes
|}

== Localization ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Localization Support
!width="9%"|GUI RtoL Support
!width="9%"|GUI Languages
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|English, Indonesian
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|English, German, Farsi, Chinese, Vietnamese
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|no
|English, Vietnamese
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|English
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|no
|Afrikaans, Česky, Deutsch, English, Suomi, Magyar, Bahasa Indonesia, 日本語, Polski, Português, Slovenščina
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|yes
|English, German, French, Finnish, Farsi, Czech, Hebrew, Dutch, Portuguese, Swedish
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible|SwordBible]]
|Windows
|
|
|English
|}

== Other ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Portable
!width="9%"|Extramodular Content
!width="9%"|Other
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|
|word-by-word comparison of Bible versions
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|[http://www.crosswire.org/~dmsmith/bd/ Portable version]
| Bible Reading Plan
| word-by-word comparison of Bible versions
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|Bible Study HOWTO
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|[http://PortableApps.com/BPBiblePortable PortableApps.com edition]
|gospel harmonies; Guess the Verse game;
|display Strong's headwords;
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
| portable
|
| parallel verse display, transliteration
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|
|
|Read Aloud, pseudo-interlinear display of Strong's/morphology, transliteration into Latin characters
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible | SwordBible]]
|Windows
|portable
|Verse lists with prefilled topics, One year daily reading plans
|
|}

Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-01T05:55:46Z

Mwtalbert: /* Module Manager Support */

=Introduction=
This page is under development. As such it may not be helpful until it is near completion. For that reason, please don't link it on another page until then. To become complete it needs fair and balanced™ coverage of the SWORD programs.

Do feel free to edit this page to make it more complete and better organized.

The purpose of this page is to help an end user decide which SWORD program is the best for them. The first consideration is which programs are available for the user. This can be found at [http://www.crosswire.org CrossWire's home page]. Once the user has narrowed down which programs are available, the following can be used to focus on the best program.

It is recommended that each user try all the available programs. It is likely that one will resonate with the user and work best for that user.

=Features Common to All SWORD Applications=
For the most part all the SWORD programs have the same features.
* Use Unicode
* Released under an open source license
* powerful search syntax - wildcard, regex and often also clucene indexed searches (fuzzy and proximity searches + searches for Strong's, stemming etc) within preset and customised scopes.
* Strong's, morphological info, cross references and footnotes
* All frontends listed beleow are undergoing more or less active development.
* verse and block layout

=Side-by-Side Comparison of Leading SWORD Applications=
== Module Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Unlock Locked Modules (via GUI)
!width="9%"|RtoL Modules
!width="9%"|Daily Devotions
!width="9%"|Book/Chapter Introductions
!width="9%"|User Editable Module Content
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|yes
|yes
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|yes] (automatic)
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|yes
|yes
|
|Personal Commentary
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|no
|yes (automatic)
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|no
|yes
|
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|yes
|yes
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|yes
|yes
|yes
|Personal Commentary
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|yes
|yes (automatic)
|yes
|Personal Commentary, Journal, all exportable
|-valign="top" 
|SwordBible
|Windows
|
|yes
|yes (automatic)
|no
|no
|}

== Module Manager Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Locked Modules (via GUI)
!width="9%"|Multiple Repositories
!width="9%"|Archiving
!width="9%"|Indexing
!width="9%"|New Content Immediately Available?
!width="9%"|Other Features
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|no
|yes
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|no
|no
|yes
|
|zip installer, download from CrossWire only
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|no
|no
|no
|no
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|yes
|
|yes
|no
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|yes
|yes
|
|yes
|Show available updates, Show uninstalled modules.
|-valign="top" 
|SwordBible
|Windows
|
|yes
|
|no
|
|no
|}

== Image Module Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Image GenBook Support
!width="9%"|Other Image Module Support
!width="9%"|Image Formats
!width="9%"|Image Resizing
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|no
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|Images can be incorporated into all module types
|png (in version 1.5.12+), jpg, bmp
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|All modules
|png, jpg, tiff, gif, bmp
|yes
|}

== Windowing and Display ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Window Layout
!width="9%"|Several texts open at same time?
!width="9%"|Poetry Layout
!width="9%"|Complex Scripts (test with Burmese module ([http://www.crosswire.org/wiki/Fonts#Burmese.2FMyanmar font]))
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Two-pane with tabs and library navigation on right
|yes
|yes
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Two-pane with tabs and library navigation on right
|yes
|yes
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|Multiple windows with flexible arrangement and library navigation on left
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
| 1-7 tiled subwindows, repositioning/hiding of panes.
| no
| yes
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|1 or 2 panes (library navigation in Firefox sidebar)
|
|yes
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|Multi-window, each module gets it's window
| yes
| no
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|Three-pane with tabbed library navigation
| only using Parallel display for Bibles
| yes, but not indented
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|Four-pane with library navigation, verse lists, etc. on left, multiple tabs, separate dialogs, saved sessions
| yes
| yes
|yes
|}

== Search and Dictionary ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Indexed Search Features
!width="9%"|Cross Verse Proximity Search
!width="9%"|GenBook and Commentary search
!width="9%"|several module search
!width="9%"|Dictionary Look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|Manual look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|CLucene
|
|
|
|Strong's + parsing (automatic)
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
| Custom
|yes
|no
|no
|Strong's + parsing (automatic) full list of topics with topic entry box
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|Manual look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
| grouping, Strong's, Morph, Apple SearchKit
|
|
|
|Strong's, Morph (automatic)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|CLucene
|no
|yes
|no
|Strong's + parsing (automatic) and glossary (on click)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|CLucene
|no
|yes
|yes (create lists of modules to search)
|Strong's + parsing automatic, glossary (on click)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible |SwordBible]]
|Windows
|no
|no
|Yes
|no
| Strong's, Morph and glossary on click
|}

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Permanent Bookmarks, Tags or Verse Lists
!width="9%"|Nestable
!width="9%"|With Comments
!width="9%"|Exportable
!width="9%"|Study Notes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|manual and search result
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|manual and search result
|
|
|
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|
| yes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|manual and search result
|no
|yes
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|manual and search result
|yes
|no
|
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|manual and search result
|yes
|no
|no
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible |SwordBible]]
|
|
|
|
|
|yes
|}

== Localization ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Localization Support
!width="9%"|GUI RtoL Support
!width="9%"|GUI Languages
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|English, Indonesian
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|English, German, Farsi, Chinese, Vietnamese
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|no
|English, Vietnamese
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|English
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|no
|Afrikaans, Česky, Deutsch, English, Suomi, Magyar, Bahasa Indonesia, 日本語, Polski, Português, Slovenščina
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|yes
|English, German, French, Finnish, Farsi, Czech, Hebrew, Dutch, Portuguese, Swedish
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible|SwordBible]]
|Windows
|
|
|English
|}

== Other ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Portable
!width="9%"|Extramodular Content
!width="9%"|Other
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|
|word-by-word comparison of Bible versions
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|[http://www.crosswire.org/~dmsmith/bd/ Portable version]
| Bible Reading Plan
| word-by-word comparison of Bible versions
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|Bible Study HOWTO
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|[http://PortableApps.com/BPBiblePortable PortableApps.com edition]
|gospel harmonies; Guess the Verse game;
|display Strong's headwords;
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
| portable
|
| parallel verse display, transliteration
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|
|
|Read Aloud, pseudo-interlinear display of Strong's/morphology, transliteration into Latin characters
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible | SwordBible]]
|Windows
|portable
|Verse lists with prefilled topics, One year daily reading plans
|
|}

Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-01T05:30:11Z

Mwtalbert: /* Windowing and Display */

=Introduction=
This page is under development. As such it may not be helpful until it is near completion. For that reason, please don't link it on another page until then. To become complete it needs fair and balanced™ coverage of the SWORD programs.

Do feel free to edit this page to make it more complete and better organized.

The purpose of this page is to help an end user decide which SWORD program is the best for them. The first consideration is which programs are available for the user. This can be found at [http://www.crosswire.org CrossWire's home page]. Once the user has narrowed down which programs are available, the following can be used to focus on the best program.

It is recommended that each user try all the available programs. It is likely that one will resonate with the user and work best for that user.

=Features Common to All SWORD Applications=
For the most part all the SWORD programs have the same features.
* Use Unicode
* Released under an open source license
* powerful search syntax - wildcard, regex and often also clucene indexed searches (fuzzy and proximity searches + searches for Strong's, stemming etc) within preset and customised scopes.
* Strong's, morphological info, cross references and footnotes
* All frontends listed beleow are undergoing more or less active development.
* verse and block layout

=Side-by-Side Comparison of Leading SWORD Applications=
== Module Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Unlock Locked Modules (via GUI)
!width="9%"|RtoL Modules
!width="9%"|Daily Devotions
!width="9%"|Book/Chapter Introductions
!width="9%"|User Editable Module Content
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|yes
|yes
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|yes] (automatic)
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|yes
|yes
|
|Personal Commentary
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|no
|yes (automatic)
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|no
|yes
|
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|yes
|yes
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|yes
|yes
|yes
|Personal Commentary
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|yes
|yes (automatic)
|yes
|Personal Commentary, Journal, all exportable
|-valign="top" 
|SwordBible
|Windows
|
|yes
|yes (automatic)
|no
|no
|}

== Module Manager Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Locked Modules (via GUI)
!width="9%"|Multiple Repositories
!width="9%"|Archiving
!width="9%"|Indexing
!width="9%"|New Content Immediately Available?
!width="9%"|Other Features
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|no
|yes
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|no
|no
|yes
|
|zip installer, download from CrossWire only
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|no
|no
|no
|no
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|yes
|
|yes
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|yes
|yes
|
|yes
|Show available updates, Show uninstalled modules.
|-valign="top" 
|SwordBible
|Windows
|
|yes
|
|no
|
|no
|}

== Image Module Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Image GenBook Support
!width="9%"|Other Image Module Support
!width="9%"|Image Formats
!width="9%"|Image Resizing
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|no
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|Images can be incorporated into all module types
|png (in version 1.5.12+), jpg, bmp
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|All modules
|png, jpg, tiff, gif, bmp
|yes
|}

== Windowing and Display ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Window Layout
!width="9%"|Several texts open at same time?
!width="9%"|Poetry Layout
!width="9%"|Complex Scripts (test with Burmese module ([http://www.crosswire.org/wiki/Fonts#Burmese.2FMyanmar font]))
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Two-pane with tabs and library navigation on right
|yes
|yes
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Two-pane with tabs and library navigation on right
|yes
|yes
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|Multiple windows with flexible arrangement and library navigation on left
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
| 1-7 tiled subwindows, repositioning/hiding of panes.
| no
| yes
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|1 or 2 panes (library navigation in Firefox sidebar)
|
|yes
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|Multi-window, each module gets it's window
| yes
| no
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|Three-pane with tabbed library navigation
| only using Parallel display for Bibles
| yes, but not indented
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|Four-pane with library navigation, verse lists, etc. on left, multiple tabs, separate dialogs, saved sessions
| yes
| yes
|yes
|}

== Search and Dictionary ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Indexed Search Features
!width="9%"|Cross Verse Proximity Search
!width="9%"|GenBook and Commentary search
!width="9%"|several module search
!width="9%"|Dictionary Look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|Manual look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|CLucene
|
|
|
|Strong's + parsing (automatic)
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
| Custom
|yes
|no
|no
|Strong's + parsing (automatic) full list of topics with topic entry box
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|Manual look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
| grouping, Strong's, Morph, Apple SearchKit
|
|
|
|Strong's, Morph (automatic)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|CLucene
|no
|yes
|no
|Strong's + parsing (automatic) and glossary (on click)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|CLucene
|no
|yes
|yes (create lists of modules to search)
|Strong's + parsing automatic, glossary (on click)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible |SwordBible]]
|Windows
|no
|no
|Yes
|no
| Strong's, Morph and glossary on click
|}

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Permanent Bookmarks, Tags or Verse Lists
!width="9%"|Nestable
!width="9%"|With Comments
!width="9%"|Exportable
!width="9%"|Study Notes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|manual and search result
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|manual and search result
|
|
|
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|
| yes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|manual and search result
|no
|yes
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|manual and search result
|yes
|no
|
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|manual and search result
|yes
|no
|no
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible |SwordBible]]
|
|
|
|
|
|yes
|}

== Localization ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Localization Support
!width="9%"|GUI RtoL Support
!width="9%"|GUI Languages
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|English, Indonesian
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|English, German, Farsi, Chinese, Vietnamese
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|no
|English, Vietnamese
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|English
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|no
|Afrikaans, Česky, Deutsch, English, Suomi, Magyar, Bahasa Indonesia, 日本語, Polski, Português, Slovenščina
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|yes
|English, German, French, Finnish, Farsi, Czech, Hebrew, Dutch, Portuguese, Swedish
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible|SwordBible]]
|Windows
|
|
|English
|}

== Other ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Portable
!width="9%"|Extramodular Content
!width="9%"|Other
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|
|word-by-word comparison of Bible versions
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|[http://www.crosswire.org/~dmsmith/bd/ Portable version]
| Bible Reading Plan
| word-by-word comparison of Bible versions
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|Bible Study HOWTO
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|[http://PortableApps.com/BPBiblePortable PortableApps.com edition]
|gospel harmonies; Guess the Verse game;
|display Strong's headwords;
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
| portable
|
| parallel verse display, transliteration
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|
|
|Read Aloud, pseudo-interlinear display of Strong's/morphology, transliteration into Latin characters
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible | SwordBible]]
|Windows
|portable
|Verse lists with prefilled topics, One year daily reading plans
|
|}

Choosing a SWORD program

2009-03-01T05:22:45Z

Mwtalbert: /* Windowing and Display */

=Introduction=
This page is under development. As such it may not be helpful until it is near completion. For that reason, please don't link it on another page until then. To become complete it needs fair and balanced™ coverage of the SWORD programs.

Do feel free to edit this page to make it more complete and better organized.

The purpose of this page is to help an end user decide which SWORD program is the best for them. The first consideration is which programs are available for the user. This can be found at [http://www.crosswire.org CrossWire's home page]. Once the user has narrowed down which programs are available, the following can be used to focus on the best program.

It is recommended that each user try all the available programs. It is likely that one will resonate with the user and work best for that user.

=Features Common to All SWORD Applications=
For the most part all the SWORD programs have the same features.
* Use Unicode
* Released under an open source license
* powerful search syntax - wildcard, regex and often also clucene indexed searches (fuzzy and proximity searches + searches for Strong's, stemming etc) within preset and customised scopes.
* Strong's, morphological info, cross references and footnotes
* All frontends listed beleow are undergoing more or less active development.
* verse and block layout

=Side-by-Side Comparison of Leading SWORD Applications=
== Module Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Unlock Locked Modules (via GUI)
!width="9%"|RtoL Modules
!width="9%"|Daily Devotions
!width="9%"|Book/Chapter Introductions
!width="9%"|User Editable Module Content
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|yes
|yes
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|yes] (automatic)
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|yes
|yes
|
|Personal Commentary
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|no
|yes (automatic)
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|no
|yes
|
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|yes
|yes
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|yes
|yes
|yes
|Personal Commentary
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|yes
|yes (automatic)
|yes
|Personal Commentary, Journal, all exportable
|-valign="top" 
|SwordBible
|Windows
|
|yes
|yes (automatic)
|no
|no
|}

== Module Manager Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Locked Modules (via GUI)
!width="9%"|Multiple Repositories
!width="9%"|Archiving
!width="9%"|Indexing
!width="9%"|New Content Immediately Available?
!width="9%"|Other Features
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|no
|yes
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|no
|no
|yes
|
|zip installer, download from CrossWire only
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|no
|no
|no
|no
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|yes
|
|yes
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|yes
|yes
|
|yes
|Show available updates, Show uninstalled modules.
|-valign="top" 
|SwordBible
|Windows
|
|yes
|
|no
|
|no
|}

== Image Module Support ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Image GenBook Support
!width="9%"|Other Image Module Support
!width="9%"|Image Formats
!width="9%"|Image Resizing
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|no
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|Images can be incorporated into all module types
|png (in version 1.5.12+), jpg, bmp
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|All modules
|png, jpg, tiff, gif, bmp
|yes
|}

== Windowing and Display ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Window Layout
!width="9%"|Several texts open at same time?
!width="9%"|Poetry Layout
!width="9%"|Complex Scripts (test with Burmese module ([http://www.crosswire.org/wiki/Fonts#Burmese.2FMyanmar font]))
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Two-pane with tabs and library navigation on right
|yes
|yes
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Two-pane with tabs and library navigation on right
|yes
|yes
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|Multiple windows with flexible arrangement and library navigation on left
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
| 1-7 tiled subwindows, repositioning/hiding of panes.
| no
| yes
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|1 or 2 panes (library navigation in Firefox sidebar)
|
|yes
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|Multi-window, each module gets it's window
| yes
| no
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|Three-pane with tabbed library navigation
| only using Parallel display for Bibles
| yes, but not indented
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|Four-pane with library navigation, verse lists, etc. on left, multiple tabs, separate dialogs, saved sessions
| yes
| yes
|
|}

== Search and Dictionary ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Indexed Search Features
!width="9%"|Cross Verse Proximity Search
!width="9%"|GenBook and Commentary search
!width="9%"|several module search
!width="9%"|Dictionary Look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|Manual look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|CLucene
|
|
|
|Strong's + parsing (automatic)
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
| Custom
|yes
|no
|no
|Strong's + parsing (automatic) full list of topics with topic entry box
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|Lucene
|yes
|
|
|Manual look-up
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
| grouping, Strong's, Morph, Apple SearchKit
|
|
|
|Strong's, Morph (automatic)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|CLucene
|no
|yes
|no
|Strong's + parsing (automatic) and glossary (on click)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|CLucene
|no
|yes
|yes (create lists of modules to search)
|Strong's + parsing automatic, glossary (on click)
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible |SwordBible]]
|Windows
|no
|no
|Yes
|no
| Strong's, Morph and glossary on click
|}

== Bookmarking, Tagging, Listing and Notes ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Permanent Bookmarks, Tags or Verse Lists
!width="9%"|Nestable
!width="9%"|With Comments
!width="9%"|Exportable
!width="9%"|Study Notes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|manual and search result
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|manual and search result
|
|
|
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|
| yes
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|manual and search result
|no
|yes
|no
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|
|
|no
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|manual and search result
|yes
|no
|
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|manual and search result
|yes
|no
|no
|yes
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible |SwordBible]]
|
|
|
|
|
|yes
|}

== Localization ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Localization Support
!width="9%"|GUI RtoL Support
!width="9%"|GUI Languages
|-valign="top" 
|[http://www.kiyut.com/products/alkitab/ Alkitab Bible Study]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|English, Indonesian
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleDesktop|BibleDesktop (JSword)]]
|Any system with Java (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.)
|yes
|yes
|English, German, Farsi, Chinese, Vietnamese
|-valign="top" 
|[http://devel.bibletime.info BibleTime] (see also [[Frontends:KioSword|Kio-Sword]])
|Linux
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[http://bpbible.com BPBible (wxPython)]
|Windows, Linux
|yes
|no
|English, Vietnamese
|-valign="top" 
|[http://thegoan.com/firebible FireBible (JSword/FireFox)]
|Firefox web browser in Windows, Mac, Linux
|
|
|English
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:MacSword|MacSword]]
|version 1.3.x Mac OSX 10.3+, version 1.4.x Mac OSX 10.4+
|
|
|
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:BibleCS|The SWORD Project for Windows]]
|Windows (95/98/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7)
|yes
|no
|Afrikaans, Česky, Deutsch, English, Suomi, Magyar, Bahasa Indonesia, 日本語, Polski, Português, Slovenščina
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:Xiphos|Xiphos (GNOME)]] (formerly [[Frontends:GnomeSword|GnomeSword]])
|Windows (2000/XP/Vista/7), Linux, BSDs
|yes
|yes
|English, German, French, Finnish, Farsi, Czech, Hebrew, Dutch, Portuguese, Swedish
|-valign="top" 
|[[Frontends:SwordBible|SwordBible]]
|Windows
|
|
|English
|}

== Other ==
{|width="100%" border="1" class="sortable"
!width="18%"|Application
!width="9%"|Operating Systems
!width="9%"|Portable
!width="9%"|Extramodular Content
!width="9%"|Other
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|word-by-word comparison of Bible versions
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Fonts

2009-03-01T05:20:30Z

Mwtalbert: /* Burmese/Myanmar */

= Fonts =

These are some suggested fonts for use with SWORD tools. Any of these work with either Linux or Windows tools, and probably Macs as well, though certain fonts work better with different tools. They're TrueType fonts, which means that usually just copying *.ttf to the right place makes them available, and that's necessary only if you don't have some sort of package manager or font installer to do it for you.

== All-Purpose ==

"Linux Libertine" is a very pretty font which provides quality character sets for all of Latin, Hebrew, and Greek, which makes it especially useful for commentaries which use all 3 at once. While it is designed for Linux, it works quite well under Windows as a display font for SWORD tools. It can be found in e.g. Fedora repositories as linux-libertine-fonts-2.4.9-1.fc7.noarch.rpm, or you can get it directly from SourceForge: [http://linuxlibertine.sf.net]. MS Arial is a useful font - if not the prettiest, it is one of the few combining decent Arabic and Farsi glyph shaping with more or less complete Latinate and Greek alphabets.

There is quite a selection of other fonts available from SIL. See [http://scripts.sil.org] and look around.

==Greek==

"Gentium" is a good font for Greek. Look in repositories for gentium-fonts-1.02-5.fc7.noarch.rpm or go instead to [http://scripts.sil.org/Gentium_linux] to get the *.zip.

==Hebrew==

"Ezra SIL" is SIL's best font for Hebrew and works very well in most SWORD front-ends. [http://scripts.sil.org/EzraSIL_Home]

For BibleTime, the best Hebrew fonts are the Culmus fonts, particularly the Frank Ruehl CLM or Drugulin CLM. Many Linux distributions have a Culmus fonts package (Mandriva calls it fonts-type1-hebrew). If your distribution doesn't have this package, you may check out the Culmus Project site [http://culmus.sourceforge.net/] and follow this link [http://www.xslf.com/media/culmus-fonts/culmus-0.101-true-type.zip] to a truetype download.

==Vietnamese==

For Vietnamese, fonts like Arial and Linux Libertine work well. However, the UVN fonts are excellent options that are designed for Vietnamese and can be downloaded for free. They can be used for English or other languages that use a Latin alphabet. UVN Saigon looks particularly good with many SWORD front-ends. You can find these fonts at the TTi website [http://www.tti-us.com/uvn/products.htm].

==Farsi==

Apart from MS Arial, which is mentioned above as a good all round font, the prettiest free font is probably Nazli, available from Farsiweb and part of many Linux repositories.

==Amharic==
Amharic is a Semitic language spoken in Ethiopia. The recommended TrueType font for viewing the [http://www.bible.org/foreign/amharic/ Amharic Bible] is called '''GF Zemen Unicode'''. For further Amharic Unicode resources, see [http://mahder.com/the-ethiopic-unicode-resource-page-amharic-fonts.html].

==Burmese/Myanmar==
SIL Padauk is an excellent font [http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=Padauk]. You may need SIL's graphite engine to properly see this font.